Equipment racks - is the cost justifiable?

[Pharos]

The arguments between the subjectivist and objectivists abound on many forums, they bubbling under the surface in discussions about numerous audio topics, and often rearing their head, there seeming to be a lack of clarity about the philosophical nature of these stances.

Objectivism is concerned with verifying that a phenomenon really exists outside the subject’s self; the definition of objectivity is, “perceiving that which is outside the self”.

With much research and work, tools can, and have been developed, which enable a limited verification of aspects of phenomena, the results of which can be verified by the perception of all, and many quantified.

If we all sequentially touched a mains positive and negative terminals and received a shock in so doing, the subjective sensation from the event’s nature will probably be agreed on by all to a large extent.

If we apply a voltmeter to these terminals and measure a voltage, roughly 230V, we would probably all agree on the value indicated by reading the scale on that meter. Surely we all agree that this is a useful and consistent measurement following laws of science established over centuries of work by pioneers, and further verified by others.

This latter activity is one of the many tools used by objectivists to verify the existence of, and to attempt to quantify, external phenomena, but the act of perceiving is actually a subjective event, it being done by the self through the self’s senses, so we are in a limited sense, being subjective when we are using a tool which measures, and even quantifies something external to us, using a tool to verify objectively.

This subjective experience does not invalidate the verifiability of the measured phenomenon, and assuming that the science resulting from the endeavour of numerous scientists is valid, and it should be after so many esteemed scientists have questioned and verified it by experiment, this process is an ancillary support to the process of understanding But it does not, as in the case of all science, fully encompass all there is to know about the phenomenon, it is not an entire treatise, just a limited aid and a tool. Surely it is dangerous to think that on the basis of human perception only, one can fully understand or evaluate anything external to the self without enquiry and analysis.

The real danger in presuming this latter comes from our being very complexed animals, top heavy with a great deal of psychology, much of which is not associated with the particular isolated situation under investigation, and we are therefore subject to potential crosstalk contamination of our perceptions by this enormous database and currency of activity, all of which is influenced by our needs for self esteem, and social pressures.

DBT is a good tool, but the real problem is that subjects become tense and anxious when they know they are under scrutiny in a test situation, again the psychology being a potential result contamination problem.

It is very much these problems with 'the divide', which excite me, because they are applicable to much of human existence.

[Marco]

Some good observations there (as usual from you when the discussion revolves around psychology/human behaviourism), a subject that also fascinates me, and which I agree manifests itself in seemingly unpredictable/unusual areas, such as what we're discussing here. If I get time, I'll touch upon some of the points you made

In the meantime, for Adam and anyone else interested in 'Marco's Mana Madness', here are some pics of the current state of play. 29 'levels' in total:



Not only Mana madness lol, but 'mains madness':





Pics include (at the forefront) a Tube Distinctions 'digital noise'/mains filter, which feeds my Sony transport and DAC, cleans up the mains and reduces the effects of 'digital glare' from CD replay [what sometimes can cause a slightly fatiguing or 'hard' sound], connected with a Schuko plug and socket to the incoming dedicated mains, plus very heavy-duty solid-core pure copper mains cables, all hardwired directly to the same mains supply, via a series of 100A junction boxes. supplying power to all equipment, at the other end fitted mainly with Furutech FI-50 carbon-fibre IECs.





And a 'wee speaker' at the back, shown from the listening position... So there you go!

Equipment racks - is the cost justifiable? Possibly....

Marco.

[Beobloke]

But....but.....why?

The Mana stuff was before my time but whenever I’ve asked people to explain what the theory was behind it, the threads descend into warfare before anyone manages to answer.

It looks crazy and I will admit that my first thought is that’s it’s very possibly daft, but I’m genuinely interested to know what the thinking was behind it.

[Jimbo]

That is some serious equipment rackage!

[Macca]

Lol - was that tongue in cheek?

Do you think I'm going to get into that here, engage in a tit for tat argument with you, and turn this thread (the likes of which always do) into a pointless objectivist vs. subjectivist bun fight?

Because no matter what I say, it won't change your entrenched views, and you won't change mine, so there's simply no point. But if you're going to play the age old 'you've imagined it' card, then I'm going to come and defend myself!

Just take my word for it, Martin -

I know what I think about this and no amount of talking to me about it is going to change my mind, however a success in a blind test would.

You were the one who claimed you had passed a blind test with the Mana so I am interested to know the details of how the test was constructed, to see how credible it was.

I'm surprise that I have not heard of this before as there is still a fair bit of debate regarding the efficacy of Mana on various forums from time to time and this test never gets brought up as proof that it does make a difference.

Off course if a turntable was the source then that would explain everything as no-one disputes that anything a turntable sits on can potentially change how it sounds, sometimes quite a large change.

But if the source was a CD player or tape deck that's a different ballgame as there is no known mechanism by which the output of such devices could be changed by the material they are sat on. So a successful blind test there would indeed be of interest, and not just to me.

[Marco]

I know what I think about this and no amount of talking to me about it is going to change my mind...

Indeed, which is why any discussion about it is pointless, as even if I outlined how the blind testing was done, it won't have been good enough The above does show a significant element of closedmindedness on your part though, but at least you're honest!

Marco.

[Marco]

But....but.....why?

The Mana stuff was before my time but whenever I’ve asked people to explain what the theory was behind it, the threads descend into warfare before anyone manages to answer.

It looks crazy and I will admit that my first thought is that’s it’s very possibly daft, but I’m genuinely interested to know what the thinking was behind it.

Lol - if I can be arsed I'll throw out some theories later. As to "why", I've already explained that (scroll back) - and of course the 'crazy look' is why it's housed in a room dedicated for the purpose, no bullshit WAF to worry about!!

Marco.

[Marco]

That is some serious equipment rackage!

Lol - just like the wife told you last night?

Marco.

[Macca]

Indeed, which is why any discussion about it is pointless, as even if I outlined how the blind testing was done, it won't have been good enough Does show a significant element of closedmindedness on your part though, but at least you're honest!

Marco.

I think what you mean by a blind test is not what I mean, or indeed the accepted meaning. Otherwise you'd be happy to give the full details, maybe even a link to the experimental write-up.

I'm happy that you are happy with your Mana and that you perceive it as making a real difference. No issue with that. As Discopants quite rightly pointed out the other day this is a subjectivist forum, so I was happy to leave it there.

I do think though, that if you are going to walk on the objective side and claim that there is scientific evidence of the Mana effect, which is what you did, then you should back that up with the evidence.

[Marco]

I think what you mean by a blind test is not what I mean, or indeed the accepted meaning. Otherwise you'd be happy to give the full details, maybe even a link to the experimental write-up.

Pretty much yes it is, but I can't be arsed going there, as that's not what this thread is or should be about.

It should be about discussing the use of equipment racks, by people with relevant knowledge and experience, not simply an excuse for naysayers to pooh-pooh anything that doesn't fit with their (rather blinkered) scientific belief system

Therefore, I will NOT allow this thread to go the way of countless thousands of others, over the years on different forums, where discussions descend into acrimony between one side and the other, so unless you have some relevant knowledge to impart, as someone who's experimented in depth with equipment supports, or anything else of constructive use to the OP, then I suggest you refrain from further commenting.

I do think though, that if you are going to walk on the objective side and claim that there is scientific evidence of the Mana effect, which is what you did, then you should back that up with the evidence.

And unless you're a qualified psychologist, the same also applies to YOU, when making rather rude and unsubstantiated claims about people (including me) 'imagining' things!!

That's why you got this response (red flag to a bull), as it's typical of those with objectivist leanings when it comes to these types of discussions. Quite simply, just because on the surface, the 'laws of physics' don't *appear* to confirm something, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Now let's leave it there. From now on, this thread will be about people's genuine experiences with equipment supports, positive or negative - NOTHING else. Ta.

Marco.