Equipment racks - is the cost justifiable?

[Phil Lawton]

What have I started?

[Marco]

Lol - worry not, Phil. These types of threads often get a little 'heated', but the difference here is that I won't allow things to get out of control or turn into a bun fight, lasting for countless pages, before giving up trying to moderate it, and end up binning the lot as indeed frequently happens elsewhere

I would ask everyone to remember that AoS is (and always will be) a staunchly pro-subjectivist. 'ears first' forum, and so whilst you can disagree with someone's subjectivist views, and challenge them accordingly, robustly if necessary, but politely, it is totally unacceptable to imply that someone has 'imagined' something, simply because what they're saying is seemingly at odds with 'the science'.

'Proof' of anything works both ways, and that includes proving that a person has been 'fooled' into believing that something exists, but which isn't genuine. That simply can't be done unless you can get inside their heads.....!

There are many genuine things we can hear in audio, but as yet remain unproven. However, that doesn't automatically mean they don't exist - and so I won't have these types of discussions essentially shut down by naysayers intent only on 'winning' an argument!

It stifles discussion, and worse scares off folk who may have bought some form of, what's often ignorantly and discourteously referred to as 'foo', and who simply want to discuss their experiences of it with other likeminded people, without essentially being made to feel like a fool!

That does not serve the subjectivist ethos this site was founded upon, which some folks might like to familiarise themselves with again, by reading the 'Our Ethos' section, or subsequently allow the relating of subjective experiences among the membership, with a view to promoting new learning.

Anyway, I just wanted to nail that one on the head. When I get the chance later, I'll comment on your opening post and offer some constructive advice, based on my not inconsiderable experience in this area

Marco.

[Jimbo]

Lol - just like the wife told you last night?

Marco.

[Jimbo]

It is interesting that equipment racks have been manufactured from just about every material going, glass, plastic, metal wood, stone,laminate etc and sometimes a combination of materials. Each material has differing levels of acoustic vibration , knock on a piece of wood and then a sheet of glass and you can simply hear it never mind feel it and therefore will also effect whatever is sitting on it.

The clever bit is to fashion the materials into an effective support that does not add vibration back into your equipment or unduly affect its performance hence why some serious manufacturers have investigated this and invested product development to find effective solutions. I don't believe one solution fits all and indeed difference equipment responds to different materials in either a negative or positive way.

Obvious pieces of kit like a turntable are highly susceptible to vibration and the materials upon which they sit but so are DACs or anything with a crystal oscillator as are indeed valve amps. I have found that everything in a system does respond to where and on what it is placed and so equipment racks are a key part of a systems performance.

In an ideal world you would keep trying different racks made from different materials to find which one suited your equipment best but this is both very time consuming and expensive but as i found with a very substantial piece of new furniture gains in sound quality can be quite profound.

[Marco]

Tee-hee... Or not, as they case may be!

Btw, on another note, I should add that the only remaining genuine bit of Mana, from the stacks I posted pics of earlier, is the 6-tier tack, which I kept a) because it works really well, and b) because it's one of about only 6 made, shortly before the company went bust, and would command a considerable price on ebay, from aficionados.

The rest are replicas I had made at a local ironworks, to the same spec as the originals, which I sold for a tidy sum. The replicas perform exactly the same function at a fraction of the price. For example, an official Mana Soundstage or 'level' used to sell for £200. I had the same things made for £45...

As they say, ching, ching, that's ASDA price!

Marco.

[struth]

Are the manas not being made again? Thought I read something

[Marco]

Not that I'm aware of, mate. I was friends with the owner (John Watson), indeed we still exchange Xmas cards, and haven't heard anything. He must be 70 now and doesn't need the money, so unless he's sold the rights to someone else who's making the stands, which of course is possible

Marco.

[Marco]

It is interesting that equipment racks have been manufactured from just about every material going, glass, plastic, metal wood, stone,laminate etc and sometimes a combination of materials. Each material has differing levels of acoustic vibration , knock on a piece of wood and then a sheet of glass and you can simply hear it never mind feel it and therefore will also effect whatever is sitting on it.

The clever bit is to fashion the materials into an effective support that does not add vibration back into your equipment or unduly affect its performance hence why some serious manufacturers have investigated this and invested product development to find effective solutions. I don't believe one solution fits all and indeed difference equipment responds to different materials in either a negative or positive way.

Obvious pieces of kit like a turntable are highly susceptible to vibration and the materials upon which they sit but so are DACs or anything with a crystal oscillator as are indeed valve amps. I have found that everything in a system does respond to where and on what it is placed and so equipment racks are a key part of a systems performance.

In an ideal world you would keep trying different racks made from different materials to find which one suited your equipment best but this is both very time consuming and expensive but as i found with a very substantial piece of new furniture gains in sound quality can be quite profound.

Good post, Jim - exactly my experience. You're also spot on with the bits in bold, although for me it's more about which 'solution' best addresses the conditions present in a specific environment, with regards to vibration, than the equipment itself necessarily responding to different materials, although there could be a bit of both

TBH, in all the years I've been into hi-fi, it's no coincidence that the best sounding systems I've heard have always been those where the owner has paid proper attention to set up, and getting what I call the 'infrastructure' right.

Therefore, if I was advising a newbie to this game on how best to build a system that would provide long term sonic and musical satisfaction and/or create a platform that would ably highlight what the electronics were doing (therefore reducing the likelihood of making mistakes, simply through writing off kit that in reality hasn't been heard properly), it would be to spend 30% of their budget on decent stands and cables, and which in the long term would provide dividends.

Too many people fixate far too much on simply the boxes and speakers, and as a result end up with no more than a mediocre sound, compared with what the same gear could be capable of, if set up more carefully or differently - and I have demonstrated that effect many times, not only with visitors to my home, or at shows, but also when I worked in hi-fi retail.

Consequently, more often than not, I'm able to visit people, listen to their systems, and if they're willing, notably improve the sound for FREE, simply by applying a few well-known tweaks, never mind anything else... You simply can't put a price on experience

Marco.

[CageyH]

Lol - do you *really* think that's why I've got my kit under about 15 levels of Mana?

Come on... You should know what I'm like by now, mate; I *only* use stuff that genuinely WORKS!

And I've been using and experimenting with 'foo racks' for well over 20 years... As I've said before, one of the reasons my system sounds so good is because of the dedicated mains and what it sits on, including all other aspects of supplying the system with the correct 'infrastructure', and the huge attention to detail I've paid in that respect to those areas.

Marco.

Surely if it worked, you would only need one layer?

[struth]

well if 1 layer is 90%, 2 is 98.1% etc.. or is it 99..