Valuable Singles

[Macca]

Fair enough, but next time I'm there I'd like to set up your remaining Techy, with an MM cartridge I'll bring with me [nothing expensive], and see how it does against your current digital reference.

Would you be up for that - do you still have a phono stage?

Marco.

I only have the phono stages in my integrated amps, or the one in my Philips Black Tulip pre-amp, But that's at Alan's right now. No longer got any interest in vinyl, I'm only keeping the records and one TT for sentimental reasons. If I ever need the money it will all get sold. Having that perfect digital fronted set-up changed my perspective, even if it was only for a couple of months before components started playing up, there's no going back for me.

[Macca]

Erm.....

One of the best sounds Martin's ever heard was from a vinyl source

Marco.

yes vinyl can sound very good when all the winds are blowing in the right direction and the stars align but it is just too variable in consistency and too expensive to justify. And now I can't unhear the things it does wrong compared to digital.

[Marco]

Sure, but it's not about going back... Use what you like now. I'd just like the opportunity to prove a point to the most diehard digital fanboy I know!!

What would you do if what you subsequently heard was better than your current digital reference? Just humour me lol, and say that's what happened. Would you acknowledge it, or simply succumb to the effects of cognitive dissonance?

Marco.

[Marco]

yes vinyl can sound very good when all the winds are blowing in the right direction and the stars align but it is just too variable in consistency and too expensive to justify. And now I can't unhear the things it does wrong compared to digital.

Sorry, I disagree with most of that. The first bit doesn't apply in my system, as [once properly set up] my T/T sounds consistently good, day after day, month after month, with no 'star alignment' or 'wind' needed!

So what did you hear that was 'wrong' with the sound that day at NEBO (from my T/T and the partnering phono stage), which you wet your pants over, compared with digital?

Nail it for me, and we'll debate it, and I'll outline what I hear that's wrong with digital

Marco.

[Macca]

Sure, but it's not about going back... Use what you like now. I'd just like the opportunity to prove a point to the most diehard digital fanboy I know!!

What would you do if what you subsequently heard was better than your current digital reference? Just humour me lol, and say that's what happened. Would you acknowledge it or simply succumb to the effects of cognitive dissonance?

Marco.

That's hard to say because I have a problem with my main system right now which I just can't work out what it is.

But when I had the Sony XB790 - DCB1 - Krell 50S - JM Lab set up that was better than almost anything I have ever heard, and consistently better, on every recording. That system was my dream sound which I never thought I would realise, or even could be realised.

In fact it literally was my dream sound as it was the same sound I heard in a dream in which I bought a big Marantz 1980s amp from someone at work. Was well pissed off when I woke up. Actually getting that sound for real felt like a dream. Just one of those cases where all the equipment stars align. If I knew why - from a technical pov - I could replicate it. But I don't.

But now the Sony is broke, the Krell is broke and I think there might be a problem with the speakers. So we can't really do a comparison to that old system now. But if we could I'm very confident that vinyl would lose. That set up was the closest I've been to studio control room sort of sound. And since that's my benchmark there's no way vinyl is going to beat that. For me, anyway. I appreciate that others are chasing a different sound.

[Marco]

Ok, fair enough, plus I'm sorry you've been having problems with your system. Hope you can both resolve them soon and rediscover that 'perfect' sound you liked

However, are you saying that you couldn't have lived with that sound you heard at NEBO, from vinyl, because of what you'd be able to hear was 'wrong'?

The reality is, as we've discussed before, in order to hear what vinyl can *really* do, you need to spend big bucks on a turntable/arm and cartridge combo [and most importantly phono stage] - not only that, but fundamentally *know* how to set it up properly and get the most from it all.

You simply can't do it on the cheap or without the patience and know-how [largely borne from experience] of how to maximise its potential.

The other thing too, which is VITAL, in being able to hear vinyl at its best, is having pristine condition records, new or used, and the willingness to occasionally invest in top-notch audiophile pressings, the best of which elevate the experience to another level.

Too many vinyl enthusiasts, in my experience, perfectly willing to spend multiple thousands of pounds on the hardware, are too mean to spend serious money, when necessary, on the all-important SOFTWARE!

Quite simply, you'll NEVER hear vinyl at its best, if all your collection (or most of it) consists of played to death old records from your youth, or charity shop (second-hand) specials...

Marco.

[Firebottle]

An excellent phono stage is vital to hearing vinyl at its best IMO. Having some top notch phono stages on the rack gives a real appreciation of what can be achieved.

Hurry up and get the Krell down to me and I'll get it fixed, then Marco and I can show you what you are missing.

[Macca]

Ok, fair enough, plus I'm sorry you've been having problems with your system. Hope you can both resolve them soon and rediscover that 'perfect' sound you liked

However, are you saying that you couldn't have lived with that sound you heard at NEBO, from vinyl, because of what you'd be able to hear was 'wrong'?

The reality is, as we've discussed before, in order to hear what vinyl can *really* do, you need to spend big bucks on a turntable/arm and cartridge combo [and most importantly phono stage] - not only that, but fundamentally *know* how to set it up properly and get the most from it all.

You simply can't do it on the cheap or without the patience and know-how [largely borne from experience] of how to maximise its potential.

The other thing too, which is VITAL, in being able to hear vinyl at its best, is having pristine condition records, new or used, and the willingness to occasionally invest in top-notch audiophile pressings, the best of which elevate the experience to another level.

Too many vinyl enthusiasts, in my experience, perfectly willing to spend multiple thousands of pounds on the hardware, are too mean to spend serious money, when necessary, on the all-important SOFTWARE!

Quite simply, you'll NEVER hear vinyl at its best, if all your collection (or most of it) consists of played to death old records from your youth, or charity shop (second-hand) specials...

Marco.

Well that's the whole thing in a nutshell isn't it? Stylus, arm, turntable, cleaning machine, the expensive pressings, get the set up spot on, and so on. All I want to do is listen to some music!

Buy the cd, slot it in, press play, that's it. And the cd is the closest you'll get to the master-tape or file, way more so than even the fanciest audiophile pressing. If the equipment used can't exploit that, it's not the medium's fault.

People who think vinyl is 'The Reference' forget (or are too young to remember) that before digital arrived, reel to reel was 'The Reference'. It's never been vinyl. It's only in the last ten years or so when you've had numbnuts like Fremer talking it up that enthusiast have got that idea into their heads.

When we had that phono stage bake-off in Penkridge, couple of years back now, the stages I most liked were the solid state ones as they sounded closest to what I was after - That was very much a minority view amongst the assembled who mostly preferred the valve stages - but to me they were quite far removed from the studio sound. We aren't all after the same thing and I think that is what the 'valves n vinyl mafia' forget when they are incredulous about people preferring solid state and digital.

I had two grand's worth of turntable set up. A cleaning machine and a quality valve phonostage and *for me* it still did not come close to a 20 year old cd player I got for fifty quid *into the right system.* And then when I realised I was spending money on the vinyl system trying to get it closer to the CD player, I had a bit of an epiphany and just replaced all my favourite albums on CD instead. Cheaper and less hassle and it sounds a lot more like it does in the studio when they are mixing.

If you don't like coconut you're never going to like a Bounty Bar no matter how good they make it.

[Marco]

Lol... The only bit I really disagree with is this:

And the cd is the closest you'll get to the master-tape or file, way more so than even the fanciest audiophile pressing.

Perhaps, but whilst also superimposing a 'digital signature' onto the sound... NO form of audio replay equipment is 100% neutral or without 'character'. That's a fact, even if it may not be measurable... If it's not measurable, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist; simply that we haven't yet discovered how to measure it!

I can easily hear [and readily identify] the sonic signature that the digital recording or playback process imposes on the sound of any analogue recording.

Therefore I'd contend, if the recording has been made using an all-analogue process (as many superb pieces of music were, pre-1970s), then the closest sound to the master-tape will be achieved by replaying it on a reel-to-reel tape recorder, or vinyl.

You certainly won't hear it, by fucking it up with a data conversion process into the digital domain

Marco.

[Macca]

Lol... The only bit I really disagree with is this:



Perhaps, but whilst also superimposing a 'digital signature' onto the sound... No form of audio replay equipment is 100% neutral or without 'character'. That's a fact, even if it isn't measurable...

And I'd contend, if the recording has been made using an all-analogue process (as many superb pieces of music were, pre-1970s),then the closest sound to the master-tape will be achieved by replaying it on a reel-to-reel tape recorder, or vinyl.

Marco.

See I don't agree that there is such a thing as a 'digital signature', at least not inherent in the medium. Obviously the digital playback equipment will have a signature to an extent, that's unavoidable. Digital encodes the waveform perfectly, tape and vinyl don't. If you listen to an analogue recording on CD then you get character from the playback equipment (true of any medium) but it will still be an exact copy of the master tape that you are starting with. Any added character beyond that is from the R2R machine they used to make the digital copy.

When you look at what they have to do to produce a vinyl record from the master tape (or file mostly these days) you can see that it inherently strays some distance away from being an exact copy. Regardless of whether or not it was an analogue recording.

When the character of each different recording you play dominates the sound over the character of the replay equipment that's when you know you are close to accuracy - now don't get me wrong, you can get that with vinyl too, but at a level of expense and hassle that I don't really want, not when there's an easier, cheaper option.