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Thread: Valve amps, great with Jazz, shit with everything else.

  1. #281
    Join Date: Oct 2020

    Location: Plymouth

    Posts: 20
    I'm Stephen.

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    Going back to the original post. I believe the issue is the Audio Innovations s500. It's a budget integrated amp. I agree with Macca when he said "I still think it is more likely to be the equipment"
    For Jazz I can understand it sounds good. But for modern music or classical which has a lot of bass response, then this amp will struggle at only 25W per channel. At anything above low to moderate listening levels this amp will begin to distort. It will sound like it is struggling.
    Sources:
    Turntable - Rega P2 (Modified).
    Streamer - Cambridge Audio Azur 851N.
    Reel to Reel - Akai GX635D.
    NAS - Thecus N4200 Pro.

    Amplification:
    Phono Pre - QUAD Twenty Four P.
    Pre Amp - QUAD QC - Twenty Four.
    Power Amps - 2 x QUAD 11 Forty mono blocks.
    Headphone Amp - QUAD PA - One.

    Rack:
    Blok Stax 400 and Blok Stax 300

  2. #282
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 31,846
    I'm openingabottleofwine.

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    The Audio Innovations S500 amplifier driving horn-loaded speakers, such as the Impulse H2 will produce deep and well-controlled bass, be it classical, jazz or rock music.
    Barry

  3. #283
    Join Date: Oct 2020

    Location: Plymouth

    Posts: 20
    I'm Stephen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    The Audio Innovations S500 amplifier driving horn-loaded speakers, such as the Impulse H2 will produce deep and well-controlled bass, be it classical, jazz or rock music.

    However the issue still persists according to the OP. I have read people saying it's ears, etc.
    I believe the issue is still the S500. Be it under powered or valve degradation/ Miss match. etc.
    Or simply not up to the expectations of the user.
    Last edited by KnuckleDragger; 26-10-2020 at 00:48.
    Sources:
    Turntable - Rega P2 (Modified).
    Streamer - Cambridge Audio Azur 851N.
    Reel to Reel - Akai GX635D.
    NAS - Thecus N4200 Pro.

    Amplification:
    Phono Pre - QUAD Twenty Four P.
    Pre Amp - QUAD QC - Twenty Four.
    Power Amps - 2 x QUAD 11 Forty mono blocks.
    Headphone Amp - QUAD PA - One.

    Rack:
    Blok Stax 400 and Blok Stax 300

  4. #284
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 31,846
    I'm openingabottleofwine.

    Default

    25W is plenty - just listen to a Radford STA25, or Lowther LL26. Even 15W is sufficient for many listeners, witness the Radford STA15 or Quad II. And the 10W/channel Leak Stereo 20 will happily drive speakers of reasonable efficiency (and even those of low efficiency such as the Quad 57s).
    Barry

  5. #285
    Join Date: Oct 2020

    Location: Plymouth

    Posts: 20
    I'm Stephen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    25W is plenty - just listen to a Radford STA25, or Lowther LL26. Even 15W is sufficient for many listeners, witness the Radford STA15 or Quad II. And the 10W/channel Leak Stereo 20 will happily drive speakers of reasonable efficiency (and even those of low efficiency such as the Quad 57s).

    And again. The issue still persists. The S500 is a good "get yourself going with valves" type amp. It is good for the price. However it most certainly is not perfect. If it was that good, then ask yourself why do many more expensive valve amps exist? It is an entry level valve integrated amp.
    I believe the owner is expecting to much of it.
    Sources:
    Turntable - Rega P2 (Modified).
    Streamer - Cambridge Audio Azur 851N.
    Reel to Reel - Akai GX635D.
    NAS - Thecus N4200 Pro.

    Amplification:
    Phono Pre - QUAD Twenty Four P.
    Pre Amp - QUAD QC - Twenty Four.
    Power Amps - 2 x QUAD 11 Forty mono blocks.
    Headphone Amp - QUAD PA - One.

    Rack:
    Blok Stax 400 and Blok Stax 300

  6. #286
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,770
    I'm Martin.

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    It also has high distortion even when not clipping - and the problem is distorted sound - coincidence?
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  7. #287
    Join Date: Nov 2011

    Location: Seaton, Devon, UK

    Posts: 13,239
    I'm Adrian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KnuckleDragger View Post
    Going back to the original post. I believe the issue is the Audio Innovations s500. It's a budget integrated amp. I agree with Macca when he said "I still think it is more likely to be the equipment"
    For Jazz I can understand it sounds good. But for modern music or classical which has a lot of bass response, then this amp will struggle at only 25W per channel. At anything above low to moderate listening levels this amp will begin to distort. It will sound like it is struggling.
    No it is NOT, the issue occurs with both the S500 and Soro amp that Mike has, and the issue also occurs not only with the AN J's but also his other speakers, He has various CDPs and swapped them around as well and still the issue persists, the best sounding CDP overall is the Mission, according to Mike.

    The S500 actually is not a "budget" integrated amplifier as you describe it, when originally sold from 1986 it was market for £600-650 and at that time this was a significant amount of money for any hifi amplifier, it had several reviews at the time and was considered very good value for money and gave a good natural and neutral reproduction. I actually purchased one in 1988 and a pair of Snell type J's, I had it triode wired by the maker, I upgraded the valves to Golden Lions at the time, and the result was very, very good, and I kept the S500 for 18 years. I regretted selling it and purchased another 5 years later and used that for 6 years and got the same enjoyment. I used this combination in 3 difference houses and 4 rooms and it performed well, I replaced the J's with KEF Ref Model 3.2's in the third house as the J's were unable to fill a 24' by 15' room with low end bass.

    If you tried to purchase a similar amplifier today it would cost at least 3-4 times, so £2K to £2.8K just based on inflation and production costs, so not a cheap option. Like all amplifiers it has some design constraints, if there wasn't then some manufacturers would be building the best sounding amps ever and charging not much for them and destroying the competition. There are in fact some very good amps out there that very good value for money, spending a fortune does not guarantee a good acoustic result.


    Mike has a very difficult and challenging room acoustically as it is nearly square, with a kitchen off of one end. We have discussed this and to get the best from any system in his room will require careful placement of the speakers and sitting positioning furnishings, to get the best from it, whatever the system may be. He will need to address mid to high frequency echoes induced by the room. Mike has highlighted that one channel is worse that the other, this will be due to the room shape where one side of the room is re-enforcing the mid to high frequencies with echoes. This will require identifying walls and corners that are causing reflections/reverb in the mid-high frequencies, by placing blankets/towels on the hard surface walls and cushions/foam in the corners. He should be able to deaden the room right down, in fact if he does this well it should sound acoustically very flat and dull. He can then remove one sound deadening object at a time and see if the echoes/edgyness start to return, by experimentation he should reach the point where he minimises the room acoustics influence to the mid to high end causing the stridency. The critical areas are likely to be at 1/3, and 2/3 along the side wall(s) and in the corners nearest the listening position. Due to the near square room shape the ceiling may also need to be addressed, especially if it is smooth painted plaster, simple deflection panels hung appropriately will help if need, balloons or hung sheets can be used to find out. Once he knows what works where then aesthetically pleasing panels, art, or furniture can be used.

    Some of you may consider the above rubbish, but I can assure you it certainly is not! I worked for 18 months in the Wolfson Unit sound and vibration laboratory at Southampton University, where we set up and performed a variety of tests in the anechoic chamber and 2 echo chambers(imperfect cubes) and out at various sites. We recorded and analysed the sounds/vibrations and then engineered and applied fixes to rectify the acoustic problems. What I learnt very quickly was that the environment in which sound or vibration is produced has a very big impact upon it. In the arena of reproduced music a poorly set up room and/or hifi system in it can and will have a detrimental impact on the end result. for example just go to a hifi show in a hotel or conference centre and walk into what was a bedroom or what was an empty room apart from able and chairs, and listen to some high end very expensive amplifier and speakers only to be disappointed, in fact often it will sound awful. This is because the system has been dumped into a poor acoustic setting, plain walls, probably a wall of glass on one wall, door left open, speakers plonked down where they look good but not necessarily good for acoustics, and to top it all nobody can actually get a good listening position, an utter waste of time, apart from looking at some nice gear.
    Listening is the act of aural discrimination and dissemination of sound, and accepting you get it wrong sometimes.

    Analog Inputs: Pro-Ject Signature 10 TT & arm, Benz Micro LP-S, Michel Cusis MC, Goldring 2500 and Ortofon Rondo Blue cartridges, Hitachi FT5500 mk2 Tuner

    Digital:- Marantz SA-KI Pearl CD player, RaspberryPi/HifiBerry Digi+ Pro, Buffalo NAS Drive

    Amplification:- AudioValve Sunilda phono stage, Krell KSP-7B pre-amp, Krell KSA-80 power amp

    Output: Wilson Benesch Vector speakers, KLH Ultimate One Headphones

    Cables: Tellurium Q Ultra Black II RCA & Chord Epic 2 RCA, various speaker leads, & links


    I think I am nearing audio nirvana, but don’t tell anyone.

  8. #288
    Join Date: Nov 2013

    Location: HAMPSTEAD

    Posts: 1,156
    I'm brian.

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    I d be surprised if the 500 was a budget amp when it first appeared ?. Could be wrong. Well, as a previous 500/ border patrol owner I was always happy with the sound combined with Decca cart / malware arm.
    However compared with Farlowe era exposure pre / power stuff as a direct comparison on cd the 500 sound quite dirty to my ears, though I might just prefer cleaner SS amps. Be interesting how vinyl sounds when
    you get the mayware going Mike. 29 pages on this and not much further forward ?. Thats audio lol

  9. #289
    Join Date: Nov 2013

    Location: HAMPSTEAD

    Posts: 1,156
    I'm brian.

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    Argh, Adrian just beat me to that and confirms it was not a budget amp.

  10. #290
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,770
    I'm Martin.

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    £650 in 1986 is £1900 today.

    Which is not a high price for a valve amp if you ignore the made in China stuff.

    Also the price is not a guide to quality. They could just have had a large mark up and large dealer and distributor margins.

    The Audionote is also a high distortion amplifier.

    if the sound is distorted by the equipment no amount of room correction or room treatment is going to solve the problem. Better equipment is needed.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

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