Valve amps, great with Jazz, shit with everything else.

[AJSki2fly]

Got the Audio Innovations S500 back in now, sounding good so far.

Hi Mike, Good that it is sounding good, what valves are in it?

I used:-

https://www.hotroxuk.com/12ax7-ecc83...gold-lion.html *3

https://www.hotroxuk.com/genalex-gol...922-e88cc.html *2

https://www.hotroxuk.com/genalex-gold-lion-kt77.html (EL34 straight substitute)

Prior to the above it came with Electro Harmonix valves, they sounded good but the above gave more detail, definition and feeling of depth.

If you want more grunt then instead of EL34's or the KT77's you could try 6CA7 pentode, https://www.hotroxuk.com/electro-harmonix-6ca7eh.html

This might help as a guide on the EL34 output valves front, bear in mind the discussion is talking from a guitar amp perspective.

You need 2 matched pairs of the EL34's or equivalents.

[Macca]

The problem extends beyond Hi-Fi, it is a malaise of capitalism.

We have an increasingly divided society, between the extremely rich and the poor. I argue that the former do not have to perceive with any great intensity, and probably live in a comfort zone.

The working classes - those who work for a living, including designers, and especially in industrial design and more so in Hi-Fi, spend hours scrutinising their designs. You must have been with people who work in the Hi-Fi industry and are constantly and obsessively trying to perceive differences, and improvements. I bet Lawrence Dickie is such, and I know T. de P. is.

Their raison d'etre is the move forward, and this takes hours of devotion and pain to get even an incremental move forward.

This, I guess, is an entirely different mindset from that of the extremely wealthy, and so, having designed and improved it, the marketeers now have to persuade people to buy it, but the improvement is probably only minimal. The marketeers then, along with the production guys, work out how to sell it. Hence often bling.

Dry subdued and subtle realism is not eye catching/attention grabbing in any area of life, people want excitement and sexy bang. Look at the currency of commodities amongst celebrities.

Maybe if it wasn't for all the reviewers pushing the idea that expensive equals better sound quality then the market for the silly priced stuff would disappear. You don't have to go far to see reviewers advising that 'You really need to move up to a DAC in the £5K price range to hear an improvement' or some such nonsense. You even see punters on the forums repeating this.

Not that I think it matters any. I'd hardly describe it as a 'malaise of capitalism'. Rich people need to offload some of that surplus cash somewhere and it keeps people in jobs.

[Opti-cal]

If sticking with the S500 it might be worth considering trying some 6L6 valves. They do require a slightly higher voltage compared to the EL34 (I'm told for optimum performance) but in various EL34 amplifiers I have tried it was always an improvement.

I've also tried Gold Lion KT77's which gave a slightly more powerful SS signature grunt but didn't have the harmonics of EL34's or 6L6's in my experience.

Sylvania 6L6's were absolutely sublime for me.

[Jac Hawk]

Maybe if it wasn't for all the reviewers pushing the idea that expensive equals better sound quality then the market for the silly priced stuff would disappear. You don't have to go far to see reviewers advising that 'You really need to move up to a DAC in the £5K price range to hear an improvement' or some such nonsense. You even see punters on the forums repeating this.

Not that I think it matters any. I'd hardly describe it as a 'malaise of capitalism'. Rich people need to offload some of that surplus cash somewhere and it keeps people in jobs.

100% mate, the problem with a lot of HiFi is it lasts a very long time, i have a turntable for instance that is almost 50 years old, it's in great condition and performs a Stirling job and i'm sure there are many more out there with even older gear, my point is HiFi equipment in the main doesn't go wrong often and more importantly can be fixed, this means that the manufacturers can't wait for your gear to give up the ghost and have to rely on the clever marketing people to convince you that the new shinier more powerful model is what's missing in your life, if they didn't then like many have already done they would close up shop as less and less people need what they are selling, a sad but true fact.

[AJSki2fly]

If sticking with the S500 it might be worth considering trying some 6L6 valves. They do require a slightly higher voltage compared to the EL34 (I'm told for optimum performance) but in various EL34 amplifiers I have tried it was always an improvement.

I've also tried Gold Lion KT77's which gave a slightly more powerful SS signature grunt but didn't have the harmonics of EL34's or 6L6's in my experience.

Sylvania 6L6's were absolutely sublime for me.

I would not advise replacing the EL34's with 6L6's, from my understanding the plate voltages would need adjusting (bias I think) and from memory this is not user adjustable on an S500. I am not sure if fitting 6L6's in it without adjustment would cause issues with the amp. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can advise.

[Opti-cal]

I would not advise replacing the EL34's with 6L6's, from my understanding the plate voltages would need adjusting (bias I think) and from memory this is not user adjustable on an S500. I am not sure if fitting 6L6's in it without adjustment would cause issues with the amp. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can advise.

Fair enough, I did say it requires different voltages but I have done it with two or three EL34 amplifiers, which were not adjusted or auto bias, and never had an issue. Obviously best to seek more advice from those more knowledgeable than I, but it did always result in audible improvement.

[Opti-cal]

Fair enough, I did say it requires different voltages but I have done it with two or three EL34 amplifiers, which were not adjusted or auto bias, and never had an issue. Obviously best to seek more advice from those more knowledgeable than I, but it did always result in audible improvement.

Actually now I've given it more than two seconds thought, I was told by an experienced amp builder that as long as the bias was set correctly for an EL34 a 6L6 would always be fine to at least try and wouldn't cause any issue. . . . as a caveat though, he was Italian . . . and rather flamboyant . . .

However, I do still have a lovely amplifier built by him which has never missed a beat in 5 years and runs cool and sounds great, so I do trust his advice. However, as always better safe than sorry.

[anthonyTD]

6L6 Require higher negative bias voltage for the same current draw as EL34, hence it is posible to fit EL34 in place of 6L6, it would just mean that the EL34 would be running at less than optimum current, but not the other way around ie; do not fit 6L6 in place of EL34, unless you can up the negative bias voltage on the grid, or in the case of cathode bias amps, a change in cathode bias resistor would be needed.
Also' many EL34 amps use higher plate voltages than most 6L6 valves will tolerate reliably, so again just use caution, a good replacement for EL34, especialy in Primaluna amps is the KT120.
Hope this helps.
A...

A bit more before i forget [again] EL34 being a pentode, has a suppresor grid, and 6L6 being a Tetrode, has beam plates, now inside a 6L6 normaly the Beam plates are already connected to the Cathode [pin 8] and therefore pin 1 is not used, However; inside an EL34 the suppresor grid is often only connected to pin 1, therefore; if pin 1 and pin 8 are not connected on the valve base in the amp, the EL34 valve will have no Suppresor grid connection to the cathode, another important consideration to take into account when thinking of swapping one valve for the other!

[Marco]

Hi mate,

There is of course sound advice in your ramblings, Unfortunetly in many instances manufacturers are torn between producing the equipment they want and know they should be making, and pandering to those who can actualy afford the kit...

Indeed. It's just a pity that so many of those who can afford it are crass assholes with more money than sense, instead of genuinely discerning audiophiles, in the game for the right reasons. I'm not exactly poor, but would NEVER EVER buy an expensive piece of audio equipment that wasn't expensive for the RIGHT reasons!

...therefore, and more often than not, many manufacturers end up producing products that are a far cry from what they intended, something i have to say i too became very uncomfortable with a long time ago, hence i decided to try and stay true to myself, and just produce equipment that i Felt people would want to own for the right reason, i can tell you though staying true to yourself comes at a hefty cost, which is why many originaly enthusiastic and talented designers, and engineers end up taking as you quite rightly point out; the bling route

Yup, you're absolutely right, and it's a sad state of affairs. TBH, you shouldn't get into producing or selling hi-fi equipment in a quest just to make money, not only because it'll be a bloody hard slog, and therefore there are far easier ways of doing so, but because your *primary* motive/focus should be to make a positive contribution to the industry and hi-fi community.

Therefore, if you're an electronics designer, then you design products that you're PASSIONATE about and believe in, and which in your opinion are better (or different) than anything else of their type, not just creating 'cash cows' for a captive audience.

And if you're a dealer, then your primary focus should be on providing your customers with a carefully selected product range, which you believe offers excellent SPPV and equipment that they will go onto own and treasure for the RIGHT reasons, whilst offering them impeccable levels of advice and service, for the duration of the time you're trading.

However, in the real world, how often does that happen? Increasingly rarely, which is why the high-end audio industry is in the state it's in, with both manufacturers and dealers pandering to the lowest common denominator, in order to make a living, rather than striving for genuine excellence.

However, it takes a desire for BOTH to WANT to improve matters, in order for things to change and improve - and that simply won't happen when, as you say, the majority of folk who can afford to indulge in the purchase of high-end audio equipment are more interested in its 'show-off factor', to their peers on forums or in real life, than in its sonic ability.

Marco.

[Marco]

Got the Audio Innovations S500 back in now, sounding good so far.

Nice one, mate. Hope that can allow you to enjoy other music than just jazz!

Marco.