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Thread: Valve amps, great with Jazz, shit with everything else.

  1. #151
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 29,574
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post

    Leave such things to the EEs and builders of equipment. End users should simply judge using their ears: that's the subjectivist approach, and indeed the AoS one!

    Marco.
    So I'm going to have a demo of every (for example) amplifier in existence before I make my choice of which one to buy? It isn't practical to select hi-fi by listening alone.

    You have to narrow it down to a point where it is practical to test them using your ears. So what is the best way to compile that shortlist? Look at the engineering quality and the measured performance and use it to rule out the tat.

    You may have a good system but how do you know you couldn't have had a better system and maybe for less money? You can't listen to everything that's available, let alone every combination of everything that's available. You'd have to live to be a million years old.
    Current Lash Up:

    *Audiolab 6000CDT* SoncozSGD1 * Krell KSA100 mkII * JM Lab Electra 926 *


    'You fool! To think that your ape-brain could contain the full knowledge of the Krell!'

  2. #152
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 102,181
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    So I'm going to have a demo of every (for example) amplifier in existence before I make my choice of which one to buy? It isn't practical to select hi-fi by listening alone.

    You have to narrow it down to a point where it is practical to test them using your ears. So what is the best way to compile that shortlist? Look at the engineering quality and the measured performance and use it to rule out the tat.

    You may have a good system but how do you know you couldn't have had a better system and maybe for less money? You can't listen to everything that's available, let alone every combination of everything that's available. You'd have to live to be a million years old.
    You just do some research on whatever you're intending to buy (and in that respect I largely use user feedback, not specs, for validation of its potential efficacy), then make a judgement call on it, and trust your gut instincts.

    I haven't 'auditioned' anything, or been near a dealer's premises in YEARS, yet I frequently manage to buy gear using the above process with no problems whatsoever, and usually end up totally satisfied with my purchases - that's WHY I don't need to box-swap!

    Look at my Gallery thread, and the amount of stuff I've been buying recently, from cartridges, stylii and SUTs, to speakers, cables, headphones and headphone amps - much of it from the other end of the world, and NONE of it was auditioned or chosen from specs! Just simply through thorough research, and ultimately having the balls to trust my instincts.

    Fortunately, all of it was a success, therefore I'll be owing and enjoying those items for many years. And I've adopted the same system-building process too, for YEARS, long before AoS was born, and made VERY few mistakes along the way. Every single part of both of my current systems was chosen using that methodology.

    Do you honestly think that's just pure luck?

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW18.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

  3. #153
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: Southall, West London

    Posts: 44,961
    I'm Geoff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    trust your gut instincts.

    Marco.
    Mine tell me I'd be having a chat with Colin Wonfor if I had the dosh.
    The word is 'valves' in this country, not tubes. Tubes are what Smarties come in!

  4. #154
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 102,181
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Default

    Yeah, Colin's as sound as a pound - and an 'expert' who TRULY deserves the title, when so many don't!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW18.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

  5. #155
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 29,574
    I'm Martin.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    You just do some research on whatever you're intending to buy (and in that respect I largely use user feedback, not specs, for validation of its potential efficacy), then make a judgement call on it, and trust your gut instincts.

    I haven't 'auditioned' anything, or been near a dealer's premises in YEARS, yet I frequently manage to buy gear using the above process with no problems whatsoever, and end up totally satisfied with my purchases - that's WHY I don't need to box-swap!

    Look at my Gallery thread, and the amount of stuff I've been buying recently, from cartridges, stylii and SUTs, to speakers, headphones and headphone amps - much of it from the other end of the world, and NONE of it was auditioned or chosen from specs! Just simply through thorough research, and ultimately having the balls to trust my instincts.

    Fortunately, all of it was a success, therefore I'll be owing and enjoying those items for many years. And I've adopted the same system-building process too, for YEARS, long before AoS was born, and made VERY few mistakes along the way. Every single part of both of my current systems was chosen using that methodology.

    Do you honestly think that's just pure luck?

    Marco.
    I never said that. Obviously experience helps, likewise a decent budget to spend in the first place. If you buy equipment that has solid engineering chops behind it you're not likely to go far wrong. Whether you do that through experience and gut instinct or by studying form makes no difference to the outcome.

    I don't tend to put much, if any, faith in subjective reviews because I know - from experience - that personal taste and, to an extent, expectations, differ wildly.

    As far as this forum is concerned I know my personal taste in presentation differs substantially from the bulk of the membership. This, by extension, can be applied across the hobby as a whole. So I prefer to look at specs and measurements to decide if something is well-engineered and worth a punt, as opposed to just relying on the 'what someone thought when they listened to it' method.

    Shortlist so derived, I take a punt, then I have an extensive listen, usually with various combinations of other kit that I already have.

    It's not infallible but then neither is your method or you would still be settled with your old Naim/Spendor system.
    Current Lash Up:

    *Audiolab 6000CDT* SoncozSGD1 * Krell KSA100 mkII * JM Lab Electra 926 *


    'You fool! To think that your ape-brain could contain the full knowledge of the Krell!'

  6. #156
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Gerrards Cross

    Posts: 2,634
    I'm Tony.

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    Valves amps can rock really well *if you have the right ones* no question, just think what are the Marshal 4 x 40 cabs powered by?
    Coherent Systems
    Real high end sound with musicality not hifi

  7. #157
    Join Date: Feb 2008

    Location: South Wales

    Posts: 8,487
    I'm NotTakingLifeTooSeriouslyTheseDays.

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    I think you mean 4 x 12 ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. C View Post
    Valves amps can rock really well *if you have the right ones* no question, just think what are the Marshal 4 x 40 cabs powered by?
    "Today scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality"
    Nikola Tesla



    www.tubedistinctions.co.uk

    There is no justification for taking away individuals' freedom in the guise of public safety.
    Thomas Jefferson
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    Thomas Jefferson
    Who will govern the governors? There is only one force in the nation that can be depended upon to keep the government pure and the governors honest, and that is the people themselves. They alone, if well informed, are capable of preventing the corruption of power, and of restoring the nation to its rightful course if it should go astray. They alone are the safest depository of the ultimate powers of government.
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  8. #158
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 102,181
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    I never said that. Obviously experience helps, likewise a decent budget to spend in the first place. If you buy equipment that has solid engineering chops behind it you're not likely to go far wrong. Whether you do that through experience and gut instinct or by studying form makes no difference to the outcome.

    I don't tend to put much, if any, faith in subjective reviews because I know - from experience - that personal taste and, to an extent, expectations, differ wildly.

    As far as this forum is concerned I know my personal taste in presentation differs substantially from the bulk of the membership. This, by extension, can be applied across the hobby as a whole. So I prefer to look at specs and measurements to decide if something is well-engineered and worth a punt, as opposed to just relying on the 'what someone thought when they listened to it' method.

    Shortlist so derived, I take a punt, then I have an extensive listen, usually with various combinations of other kit that I already have.

    It's not infallible but then neither is your method or you would still be settled with your old Naim/Spendor system.
    Yes, but I've learned SO much since then, particularly about achieving the highest SPPV, and have stuck with largely the same system since - and that was 2009! How many systems or different bits of kit have you gone through in that time - and where are you now?

    And here's the thing.... In REAL terms, how much progress have you made?

    I know, beyond question, that if I were to return to my previous Naim/Spendor system, it would be a massive downgrade on what I've got now - and crucially - assembled at lower cost. Back in my Naim days, I was dropping 8k on the likes of a brand new NAC52 and Supercap PSU and not batting an eyelid, or 6k on a CDSII/XPSII.

    But I learned from my mistakes, and how to spend that money FAR more wisely!

    One of the telling tests for me, in terms of ascertaining if someone's on the right path or not, or if they really know what they're doing, easily facilitated if they're a friend you see regularly for example, is assessing whether the sound that they had going on, as it were, say 10 years ago is notably improved by the sound they've got going on now.

    Often, however, that isn't the case and its usually only different, or often worse, and so in real terms they've gone BACKWARDS more than forwards, and subsequently so has their bank balance, with all the swapping and changing!

    Quite simply, if you *really* know what you're doing and have good ears, then EVERY new system you own, or change of component, should effect a GENUINE no-brainer sonic improvement, acknowledged and heard by others listening to it, who also have good ears and had heard the sound that preceded it.

    THAT is how you move forward and make genuine progress, so if your system of 2020 doesn't sound markedly better than the one you had in 2010, despite being able to chuck the same amount of time and money at it, then unfortunately you've failed. That's the brutal truth. Now I'm not saying that applies to you, but judging by the evidence I see so often on forums, sadly it applies to countless others.

    And yes, no judgement criteria or approach is perfect, and that includes mine and yours, but at the end of the day for END USERS of gear, not builders or EEs, this *should* be a subjectivist hobby, and therefore ultimately our ears should always be the ones to decide, not what's contained in any text journals, Johnny's book on the laws of physics, or otherwise, or some erroneous quest for 'accuracy', as for me that road, for most, will ultimately lead to frustration and disappointment.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW18.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

  9. #159
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 29,574
    I'm Martin.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Yes, but I've learned SO much since then, particularly about achieving the highest SPPV, and have stuck with largely the same system system since - and that was 2009! How many systems or different bits of kit have you gone through in that time - and where are you now?

    And here's the thing.... In REAL terms, how much progress have you made?
    .
    All the progress I needed to. I was done and dusted, had a superb sound, exactly what I'd been after all these years. Then the amp went faulty. Try finding another Krell KSA50S for sale in Europe. If you can I'll buy it. There's just not that many and the owners hang onto them like their balls.

    Also don't forget that I have the separate hobby of being into the equipment. I also buy kit just to see what it is like, or to revisit stuff I had years ago, or because I just like the looks of it.

    Your suggestion that it is only 'objectivists' who are chopping and changing all the time is well wide of the mark. I'd say they are less likely to go chasing rainbows myself. You may say that their systems are not that good but that's just one man's subjective opinion.
    Current Lash Up:

    *Audiolab 6000CDT* SoncozSGD1 * Krell KSA100 mkII * JM Lab Electra 926 *


    'You fool! To think that your ape-brain could contain the full knowledge of the Krell!'

  10. #160
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Gerrards Cross

    Posts: 2,634
    I'm Tony.

    Default

    Sorry Tony

    I was getting all Ritchie Blackmore'd for a moment there mine starts at 11

    Have a few of those cabs kicking about Celeston drivers??? he had an extra driver stage giving around 270Watts from each cab I believe.

    You want to buy another KSA50 Martin? I have at least two that are serviceable easily put back to correct condition
    Coherent Systems
    Real high end sound with musicality not hifi

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