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Thread: Valve amps, great with Jazz, shit with everything else.

  1. #141
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 29,188
    I'm Martin.

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    Thankfully someone in the comments section spells it out (my bold). Pretty much anything Paul at PD Audio says is thinly disguised marketing for PS Audio. You can't blame him, that's his job, but probably not the best person to quote to back up an argument, especially when it is a bit of a strawman in the first place.

    ''Paul, while I agree with your idea that power supplies are just as important as the circuit they are powering, I do not agree with your use of the word “engineer” in you comments.

    Take the word “engineer” and replace that with “weekend electronics hobbyist” or ” service technician” and it will then be an accurate representation of today’s subject.

    An educated EE most certainly understands the importance or lack there of in some cases of the power supply. That schematic you show is from a service manual. It does not show all the current nodes for one example which a competent EE would take into consideration with the design.

    Please don’t assume because you found the importance of power supplies by accident at 25 years into your career, that formal training does not teach this within the first four years. This is the whole point of formal education, be it self researched or by instruction. Where doesn’t really matter much anymore. In fact today with the internet anyone can become a pretty good EE just from self study if so motivated. But 30 years ago we didn’t have that option.

    To summarize, today’s post once again suggests the professional engineering community is lacking competence in certain areas but PS Audio knows better. That is not the case. Again the I said the EE community as a whole. There is incompetence in any field and electrical engineering is no exception either.
    ''
    Current Lash Up:

    *Oppo BDT-101CI* Nelson Pass DCB1 / Krell KSA100 mkII * JM Lab Electra 926 *


    'You fool! To think that your ape-brain could contain the full knowledge of the Krell!'

  2. #142
    Join Date: Nov 2010

    Location: Chorley, Lancs

    Posts: 2,261
    I'm Mike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikeandvan View Post
    I really don't think the issues I've been having are down to a lack of power as the soro is beefy enough, and the ANJs are very easy to drive. I reckon a lot of valve users never go anywhere near rock music, so never get the cause to complain. The s500 I have too has been modded with a power supply added, so there we go. Doing a lot of changing recently, with TTs and the like so hopefully can tweak sound more to my liking in that department. End of the day though, I still reckon I'll have to buy a an SS amp if I wanna rock out, I think a £1000 or just over is the most I'll pay for each component, so that rules out £3K for a valve amp that can do rock re Marcos reccomendation. Thanks for your reply Ade, the Rega amps I briefly tried didn;t work out for me, I found the Brio too brash and the Mira too smooth, even more so than Quad. I wanted something with bite to change to when listening to certain rock music, and the regas were too extreme in either direction. I could have played around different speakers etc but they fell at the first hurdle, so I thought just leave it, they're now on ebay. I'll be changing my living room around soon and the AN Js will have more freedom positioning wise, so I hope they'll sound a bit better then. With all this in mind, I wonder what carts I should buy next, one for the Garrard with a Mayware tonearm, and one for the 1210 GR with 750D, might aim cheap and have more choice, old Shures etc.
    I must disagree, i've recently moved over to valves and am currently running a Primaluna Evo 400 integrated with EL34's through Kralk Audio TDB12's, anyone who has heard my system will agree that it doesn't lack in the "gut wrenching bass" department, music like the propeller heads decks and drums and rock and roll is delivered in spades with fantastic deep well controlled bass.


    As the late Colonel Sanders once said
    "I'm too drunk to taste this chicken!!"

  3. #143
    Join Date: Mar 2008

    Location: Galashiels

    Posts: 13,211
    I'm inthescottishmafia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikeandvan View Post
    I really don't think the issues I've been having are down to a lack of power as the soro is beefy enough, and the ANJs are very easy to drive. I reckon a lot of valve users never go anywhere near rock music, so never get the cause to complain. The s500 I have too has been modded with a power supply added, so there we go. Doing a lot of changing recently, with TTs and the like so hopefully can tweak sound more to my liking in that department. End of the day though, I still reckon I'll have to buy a an SS amp if I wanna rock out, I think a £1000 or just over is the most I'll pay for each component, so that rules out £3K for a valve amp that can do rock re Marcos reccomendation. Thanks for your reply Ade, the Rega amps I briefly tried didn;t work out for me, I found the Brio too brash and the Mira too smooth, even more so than Quad. I wanted something with bite to change to when listening to certain rock music, and the regas were too extreme in either direction. I could have played around different speakers etc but they fell at the first hurdle, so I thought just leave it, they're now on ebay. I'll be changing my living room around soon and the AN Js will have more freedom positioning wise, so I hope they'll sound a bit better then. With all this in mind, I wonder what carts I should buy next, one for the Garrard with a Mayware tonearm, and one for the 1210 GR with 750D, might aim cheap and have more choice, old Shures etc.
    I've used quite a few different valve amps, as well as SS, but the fastest amp with the best bass I've used at home was a 4w single ended OTL.
    “Music has always been a matter of energy to me, a question of fuel. Sentimental people call it inspiration, but what they really mean is fuel. I have always needed fuel. I am a serious consumer. On some nights I still believe that a car with the gas needle on empty can run about fifty more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio”

    Hunter S Thompson

  4. #144
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 101,054
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Hi Adrian.

    Quote Originally Posted by AJSki2fly View Post
    I find your post a bit odd for you, you argue at the start that big is best for transformer for all amps and other gear, but then at the end you state that you should try other things and not assume all done before in audio and presumably other areas is correct, are you arguing with yourself?
    Lol - not at all, and I'm surprised you find it odd. In hi-fi, I judge things using the God-given senses I was born with, and ultimately trust them most, not science, as that's the route that has taken me to owning a truly superb system, and one that I'm delighted with, and can live with and will use for years.

    This is often in sharp contrast to the 'science first' folk, who are often never satisfied for more than 5 mins and constantly box-swapping!

    I'm exaggerating a little, of course, but my basic point remains: in the final analysis, TRUST YOUR EARS above ALL else!

    Therefore, what I'm saying is that if to your ears something clearly works, and the science backs it up, as with the case of using large mains transformers in amps, then cool, but if not, and you're still convinced that what you're hearing is right, then go with your gut instincts [trust your senses], because there's still plenty to learn in audio that science hasn't yet proved!

    And that is the point that Paul was making in the article I linked to, and I agree with every word (and his sentiments), simply because experience bears it out!

    Also in an earlier post you referred to big is better and your 3.2 l Merc (very nice by the way), however I would point you to a bottom of the range Tesla which I think would leave your dead from any speed, so a case of new is probably better, and of course if you want smaller aspirated then I thing a current F1 1600cc even with electric boost off might have a bit more oomph!
    Firstly, my point was about headroom, and in that respect a big engine will feel more effortless and comfortable to drive at high speeds than a smaller engine, ditto the same with an amplifier fitted with an over-specced fully-regulated linear PSU, reproducing music, especially with demanding stuff, compared with one fitted with something 'punier'. There of course are other variables to consider, but more often than not, it holds true.

    So despite what the science may say to the contrary (if indeed it does), that's just what my experience tells me - and THAT is ultimately all I care about!!

    Marco.

    P.S I wouldn't touch a homogenised, soulless electric car if you paid me. I'll be a 'petrolhead' to the death!!
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus VDH 'The Wind' speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW18.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

  5. #145
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 101,054
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Thankfully someone in the comments section spells it out (my bold). Pretty much anything Paul at PD Audio says is thinly disguised marketing for PS Audio. You can't blame him, that's his job, but probably not the best person to quote to back up an argument, especially when it is a bit of a strawman in the first place.

    ''Paul, while I agree with your idea that power supplies are just as important as the circuit they are powering, I do not agree with your use of the word “engineer” in you comments.

    Take the word “engineer” and replace that with “weekend electronics hobbyist” or ” service technician” and it will then be an accurate representation of today’s subject.

    An educated EE most certainly understands the importance or lack there of in some cases of the power supply. That schematic you show is from a service manual. It does not show all the current nodes for one example which a competent EE would take into consideration with the design.

    Please don’t assume because you found the importance of power supplies by accident at 25 years into your career, that formal training does not teach this within the first four years. This is the whole point of formal education, be it self researched or by instruction. Where doesn’t really matter much anymore. In fact today with the internet anyone can become a pretty good EE just from self study if so motivated. But 30 years ago we didn’t have that option.

    To summarize, today’s post once again suggests the professional engineering community is lacking competence in certain areas but PS Audio knows better. That is not the case. Again the I said the EE community as a whole. There is incompetence in any field and electrical engineering is no exception either.
    ''
    In your humble opinion, of course. I fully agree with Paul's sentiments, simply because experience bears it out! And I've said, that's ultimately all I care about. Fuck yer text books. The more you fret over specs and measurements, the less satisfied or contented you are - that's MY experience.

    Leave such things to the EEs and builders of equipment. End users should simply judge using their ears: that's the subjectivist approach, and indeed the AoS one!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus VDH 'The Wind' speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW18.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

  6. #146
    Join Date: Dec 2008

    Location: East Riding of Yorkshire

    Posts: 4,671
    I'm Shaun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Firstly, my point was about headroom, and in that respect a big engine will feel more effortless and comfortable to drive at high speeds than a smaller engine, ditto the same with an amplifier fitted with an over-specced fully-regulated linear PSU, reproducing music, especially with demanding stuff, compared with one fitted with something 'punier'. There of course are other variables to consider, but more often than not, it holds true.
    Makes a helluva lot of sense. Not just amplifiers and cars but motorcycles as well. Gob's full of reserve power and grunt.

  7. #147
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 101,054
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Default

    Indeed - that for me is what it's all about, both with engines and hi-fi!

    I don't do 'weedy' - EVER!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus VDH 'The Wind' speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW18.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

  8. #148
    Join Date: Dec 2008

    Location: East Riding of Yorkshire

    Posts: 4,671
    I'm Shaun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Indeed - that for me is what it's all about, both with engines and hi-fi!

    I don't do 'weedy' - EVER!

    Marco.
    I did up to my latest power amp. There is no looking back now though. I firmly believe that low powered units are no longer for me. Once again, live and learn.

  9. #149
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 29,188
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    In your humble opinion, of course. I fully agree with Paul's sentiments, simply because experience bears it out! And I've said, that's ultimately all I care about. Fuck yer text books. The more you fret over specs and measurements, the less satisfied or contented you are - that's MY experience.

    Leave such things to the EEs and builders of equipment. End users should simply judge using their ears: that's the subjectivist approach, and indeed the AoS one!

    Marco.
    I think you've missed the point.

    Paul of PS audio makes his original post with the purpose of suggesting to less well-informed punters that most manufacturers neglect to provide adequate power supplies whereas PS Audio do not.


    The reply to Paul of PS Audio that I quoted simply points out to him that electronic engineers are well-aware of the importance of power supplies and this does not contravene anything in 'the textbooks.'

    In other words the whole thing is a strawman that Paul sets up and knocks down as a sales tactic. He does that a lot and he's far from the only one.
    Current Lash Up:

    *Oppo BDT-101CI* Nelson Pass DCB1 / Krell KSA100 mkII * JM Lab Electra 926 *


    'You fool! To think that your ape-brain could contain the full knowledge of the Krell!'

  10. #150
    Join Date: Nov 2011

    Location: Seaton, Devon, UK

    Posts: 6,849
    I'm Adrian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Hi Adrian.



    Lol - not at all, and I'm surprised you find it odd. In hi-fi I judge things using the God-given senses I was born with, and ultimately trust them most, not science, as that's the route that has taken me to owning a truly superb system, and one that I'm delighted with and can live with and will use for years.

    This is often in sharp contrast to the 'science first' folk, who are often never satisfied for more than 5 mins and constantly box-swapping!

    I'm exaggerating a little, of course, but my basic point remains: in the final analysis, TRUST YOUR EARS above ALL else!
    Yes I quite agree, if what you hear you like then stick with it, unfortunately I went through a confused phase of box swapping as was I was hearing did not satisfy me fully, some aspects were good others poor, unfortunately at the time there were several areas of my system causing different issues. Eventually I got to the bottom of it and my ears now hear nice sounds, but it was a bit painful getting there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post

    Firstly, my point was about headroom, and in that respect a big engine will feel more effortless and comfortable to drive at high speeds than a smaller engine, ditto the same with an amplifier fitted with an over-specced fully regulated linear PSU, reproducing music, especially with demanding stuff, compared with one fitted with something 'punier'.

    Despite what the science says, that's just what my experience tells me - and THAT is ultimately all I care about!!

    Marco.

    P.S I wouldn't touch a homogenised, soulless electric car if you paid me. I'll be a 'petrolhead' to the death!!
    This is quite and interesting article on transformers, https://www.hifinews.com/content/know-your-transformers

    My understanding is that the higher the damping factor that an amplifier has then the better its ability to managed higher feedback from transducers(speakers) effectively damping the induced current as a result of the speaker returning to its resting position, simplistic explaination I know. So it this why big is better?

    With respect to cars, I personally have had quite a few high powered and large engined beasts, several 4ltr V8's, a 3.6L V6, a 5L flat 12, a couple of 3.2-3.6l flat 6's, all with a variety of power outputs, BHP/Torque, so know where you are coming from. If you have not been in a Tesla I think you would find it quite interesting.
    Listening is the act of aural discrimination and dissemination of sound, and accepting you get it wrong sometimes.

    Analog Inputs:
    Pro-Ject Signature 10 TT & arm
    Benz Micro LP-S, Michel Cusis MC, Goldring 2500 and Ortofon Rondo Blue cartridges
    Hitachi FT5500 mk2 Tuner

    Digital:-
    Sony 3d blu-Ray for CDs to Caiman SEG
    RaspberryPi/HifiBerry Digi to Beresford Caiman SEG DAC
    Buffalo NAS Drive

    Amplification:-
    LFD MMC special phono stage & Rothwell MCX SUT
    ALLNIC T1500 MKII SET 300B amp
    Schiit MAGNI 3 Heresy amp

    Output:
    Wilson Benesch Vector speakers
    KLH Ultimate One Headphones

    Cables:
    Furutech AG-12-R4 High Performance Phono Cable
    Eccose Conductor CA1
    Belden 8402 with Switchcraft 3502A Audiophile High-End RCA
    Chord Epic speaker leads, & signature links


    I think I am nearing audio nirvana, but don’t tell anyone.

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