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Thread: Valve amps, great with Jazz, shit with everything else.

  1. #61
    Join Date: Aug 2009

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikeandvan View Post
    I had some serious hifi speakers once, Kef reference 2 I think, they sounded lifeless, may'be I'm just a lofi sorta guy. It sounds shit but it measures good is not my way of choosing hifi btw, lol.
    I think you're oversimplifying something that is quite complex i.e amplifier-speaker- room combination. The KEF Reference 2 isn't inherently 'lifeless' but like any speaker it can be got to sound that way due to the other factors involved. Specifically with the KEF they are a very awkward load, the only time I have heard that particular speaker they were being driven by some POS boutique valve amp that wasn't up to the job and the sound was shrill and hard. But you could still tell that they were inherently a 'good' speaker.

    if we take as the starting point a speaker that measures well then there is at least something to work with. It might sound poor or lifeless or whatever to begin with but since we know that is not an inherent issue with the speaker itself we can then move on to addressing the problem with a logical approach. Whereas with a heavily coloured speaker like the Audionotes we're starting on the back foot and will probably never be able to correct their issues so they sound good with all genres.

    The 'measures well but sounds poor' is a good soundbite, problem is that despite what people claim there are not really any speakers (or amplifiers) that fall into that category. You might find a poorly measuring speaker or amp enhances some types of (simple) music like acoustic jazz over its well-measuring competitor, but then, as you've also found, that enhancement with simple music then becomes a drawback to enjoying something more difficult to reproduce - like 1960s rock music.
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  2. #62
    Join Date: Feb 2008

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    IMHO, one of the reasons a lot of speakers from the 1970, 80,90, were deemed awful compared to speakers from say the 1950's 60, was down to the transistor, now don't get me wrong, i am not about to bash the transistor as without it, many of the things we take for granted now would not be possible.
    Its down to a change of design approach that came about with the introduction of the transistor into audio, i.e.; when mainstream Audio was all valve, speaker designer/manufacturers concentrated more on the design element of the driver itself, making it as linear as possible, while maintaining a good sensitivity, that made it useable by most well designed valve amplification that was being produced at the time.
    The introduction of the transistor eventually made it possible to make high output amplifier designs relatively cheap in comparison to the regular valve amps that had been the norm for decades before, therefore; the care and attention to the speaker drive unit parameters that had been the norm, started to slip, with less time spent on making decent but expensive drive units, as it was now possible to make drive units much cheaper, and on a much larger scale, sometimes using different, stiffer, heavier materials, as there was plenty of power available to drive inefficient, non linear drivers, and get them to work, by fitting over-complicated cross-over’s to tidy everything up afterwards, this i think is a much bigger problem than we realise, especially when you start to study the design parameters of the drivers used in some of these designs, some aspects of their frequency response, and linearity over a set bandwidth is truly terrible, hence the need for complicated cross-over’s in an attempt to make a usable completed speaker out what is in essence junk!
    Some of these designs are from Manufacturers with very high provenance.
    One such speaker comes to mind, i will not name the company, but lets just say, after speaking with one of the designers, we both agreed that this particular speaker would most probably only work to a satisfactory level with the accompanying electronics they also produced!
    Just my ramblings.
    A...
    "Today scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality"
    Nikola Tesla


    When wireless is perfectly applied the whole earth will be converted into a huge brain, which in fact it is, all things being particles of a real and rhythmic whole... and the instruments through which we shall be able to do this will be amazingly simple compared with our present telephone. A man will be able to carry one in his vest pocket. Nikola Tesla, 1926
    We Send our kids to school to be Educated, not Medicated!

  3. #63
    Join Date: Aug 2009

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    I agree, most speakers range from quite poor to absolutely terrible. But I'd also blame that on the predominance of the wholly subjective review. if you can get away with producing tat and it still gets rave reviews - and therefore sells well - why make the effort to do better?
    Current Lash Up:

    *Oppo BDT-101CI* Nelson Pass DCB1 / Krell KSA100 mkII * JM Lab Electra 926 *


    'You fool! To think that your ape-brain could contain the full knowledge of the Krell!'

  4. #64
    Join Date: Apr 2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by anthonyTD View Post
    One such speaker comes to mind, i will not name the company, but lets just say, after speaking with one of the designers, we both agreed that this particular speaker would most probably only work to a satisfactory level with the accompanying electronics they also produced!
    Just my ramblings.
    A...
    I'd love to know who that may have been .
    "when common sense, logic and plausibility are excluded. All that remain are foolishness and lies"

  5. #65
    Join Date: Mar 2017

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    "It sounds shit but it measures good is not my way of choosing hifi btw, lol. "

    Look at what measures well, and then choose from that what sounds best, according to your budget.

    Does anyone know at what time the Thiele-Small breakthrough research was done?

  6. #66
    Join Date: Feb 2008

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pharos View Post

    Look at what measures well, and then choose from that what sounds best, according to your budget.
    "Today scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality"
    Nikola Tesla


    When wireless is perfectly applied the whole earth will be converted into a huge brain, which in fact it is, all things being particles of a real and rhythmic whole... and the instruments through which we shall be able to do this will be amazingly simple compared with our present telephone. A man will be able to carry one in his vest pocket. Nikola Tesla, 1926
    We Send our kids to school to be Educated, not Medicated!

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    I agree, most speakers range from quite poor to absolutely terrible. But I'd also blame that on the predominance of the wholly subjective review. if you can get away with producing tat and it still gets rave reviews - and therefore sells well - why make the effort to do better?
    "Today scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality"
    Nikola Tesla


    When wireless is perfectly applied the whole earth will be converted into a huge brain, which in fact it is, all things being particles of a real and rhythmic whole... and the instruments through which we shall be able to do this will be amazingly simple compared with our present telephone. A man will be able to carry one in his vest pocket. Nikola Tesla, 1926
    We Send our kids to school to be Educated, not Medicated!

  8. #68
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

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    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pharos View Post
    "It sounds shit but it measures good is not my way of choosing hifi btw, lol. "

    Look at what measures well, and then choose from that what sounds best, according to your budget.

    Does anyone know at what time the Thiele-Small breakthrough research was done?
    Thiele was 1960s, Small was 1970s.
    Current Lash Up:

    *Oppo BDT-101CI* Nelson Pass DCB1 / Krell KSA100 mkII * JM Lab Electra 926 *


    'You fool! To think that your ape-brain could contain the full knowledge of the Krell!'

  9. #69
    Join Date: Jan 2009

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    I'm openingabottleofwine.

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    I'm reminded of what Peter Walker once said when asked if he thought his speakers (the Quad 57s) were 'very good': "No we don't think they are good, but then we don't think anyone else's are either."
    Barry

  10. #70
    Join Date: Feb 2008

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    I'm NotTakingLifeTooSeriouslyTheseDays.

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    Yes, peter had a way with words!
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I'm reminded of what Peter Walker once said when asked if he thought his speakers (the Quad 57s) were 'very good': "No we don't think they are good, but then we don't think anyone else's are either."
    "Today scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality"
    Nikola Tesla


    When wireless is perfectly applied the whole earth will be converted into a huge brain, which in fact it is, all things being particles of a real and rhythmic whole... and the instruments through which we shall be able to do this will be amazingly simple compared with our present telephone. A man will be able to carry one in his vest pocket. Nikola Tesla, 1926
    We Send our kids to school to be Educated, not Medicated!

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