+ Reply to Thread
Page 3 of 13 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 126

Thread: Grounding boxes?

  1. #21
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Norfolk, UK

    Posts: 4,385
    I'm Rob.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AJSki2fly View Post
    Hello Josie

    You might like to try the CAD Ground Control reference system, there is an article about it in July HiFi+ magazine, It can be configured in several ways apparently, according to the article it’s worth every penny of the £20,500 price. By the way it only weighs 50kg

    Happy listening��


    Sounds like a bargain and a half.
    Main system:
    Ben Duncan Mains Conditioner > Mac mini running Fidelia / Samsung 55Ē TV > Audioquest Crimson USB / QED Reference Optical Quartz > Leema Acoustics Elements DAC > Chord Clearway XLR interconnects > Bel Canto Ref500S > Chord Clearway speaker cable with Clearway jumpers > B&W 683s > Audioquest SLiP Neutrik Speakon > BK Double Gem sub

    Music production system:
    iMac > Crystal USB > Audioquest Jitterbug > Arcam rDAC / Audiolab M-DAC > Edifier S3000 Pros / AirPulse A100s / Adam A7Xs

  2. #22
    Join Date: Jun 2014

    Location: Chorley Lancs

    Posts: 6,849
    I'm Steve.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AJSki2fly View Post
    Hello Josie

    You might like to try the CAD Ground Control reference system, there is an article about it in July HiFi+ magazine, It can be configured in several ways apparently, according to the article itís worth every penny of the £20,500 price. By the way it only weighs 50kg

    Happy listening😃
    I'll take two. Always handy to keep a spare
    I just dropped in, to see what condition my condition was in

    T/T: Inspire Monarch, X200 tonearm, Ortofon 2M Black. Phono: Yaqin MS-22B CD: Marantz CD6006 (UK Edition); Headphone/pre: Myryad Z40; Amp: Audion Silver Night 300b stereo
    Speakers: Zu Omen Def. Cables: Atlas Equator interconnects, Atlas Hyper 3.0 speaker cables

    T'other system:
    Echo Dot, Amptastic Mini-1, Celestion 5's, BK XLS-200 DF

    A/V:
    LG 55" OLED, Panasonic Blu Ray, Sony a/v amp, MA Radius speakers, REL Storm sub

  3. #23
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Gerrards Cross

    Posts: 2,592
    I'm Tony.

    Default

    They are a few of the devices on the market some claiming wondrous things and others just sit in the corner and quietly do they their thing.

    The biggest issue for most folks is the term 'grounding' this is not an a main earth relationship in any way. Grounding refers to the reference voltage in a circuit which is '0' volts to which both positive and negative voltages are reference from.

    For example a vehicle battery system is 12v has black and red terminals this 0-12Vdc the black terminal being 0 volts.

    In a pre amplifier for example they will be dual rails usually capable of +/- 6-18Vdc giving a total rail to rail swing of up to 36vdc.

    So 0 volts is what most people would call ground and in the vast majority of audio equipment you may have many independent grounds, this will have potential difference between them, so very small other no so.

    Ideally all grounds within a component be be absolute zero across all of the ground reference planes.

    Theory being that by joining all of these ground planes together in all of your equipment they have a one single reference point.

    Now much has been said, laughed and scoffed, theorized and plain guessed at what is or is not happening.

    What I can say without question is RF energy inside the individual pieces of audio does move around in various methods, conducted (along transmission lines, cabling, circuit boards and connectors) plus Radiated RF through the air/case work.

    There are tests specifically designed for CE approval that limit these EMC emissions to a particular standard (CISPER) so surely if the device has passed CE then there is no problem right? One of the testing procedures for this standard is immunity testing where an induced am modulated pulse is put into the DUT (device under test) DC and AC power supplies to stimulate a response to see how it stands up to outside RF.

    Now what I can say is I have spent a long time on this subject (not just audio emissions) you can measure the amount of RF ingress via several different ways, Rf passive probes, TEM cells and if you have the budget RF current probes and quality spectrum analyses plus a network analyzer for other measurements related to cabling.

    one of these probes is used for this very application see below.

    RF current probe

    In my investigations with this subject what I can demonstrate (repeatably as well) is that RF energy travels along the grounding cabling from the audio equipment to the grounding device I have measured upwards to 48uV of current moving to grounding box/device.

    Does this effect the sound?, I firmly believe it does without question, though as it has been said different people has observed different results.


    I do have some measurement images I can show, but not today they are on the Lab PC not the office one! Have also measured six different manufacturers grounding products, some shall we say are more effective at removing this rf noise than others.
    Coherent Systems
    Real high end sound with musicality not hifi

  4. #24
    Join Date: Mar 2017

    Location: Seaford UK

    Posts: 1,476
    I'm Dennis.

    Default

    "49uV of current"?

    My education must all be wrong.
    Anyway I've just placed a thick piece of spare mains cable from the Hi-Fi to the cat's litter tray, and I'm waiting for him to piss in it.

  5. #25
    Join Date: Jul 2020

    Location: Pacific NorthWest

    Posts: 27
    I'm Jeremy.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. C View Post
    They are a few of the devices on the market some claiming wondrous things and others just sit in the corner and quietly do they their thing.

    The biggest issue for most folks is the term 'grounding' this is not an a main earth relationship in any way. Grounding refers to the reference voltage in a circuit which is '0' volts to which both positive and negative voltages are reference from.

    For example a vehicle battery system is 12v has black and red terminals this 0-12Vdc the black terminal being 0 volts.

    In a pre amplifier for example they will be dual rails usually capable of +/- 6-18Vdc giving a total rail to rail swing of up to 36vdc.

    So 0 volts is what most people would call ground and in the vast majority of audio equipment you may have many independent grounds, this will have potential difference between them, so very small other no so.

    Ideally all grounds within a component be be absolute zero across all of the ground reference planes.

    Theory being that by joining all of these ground planes together in all of your equipment they have a one single reference point.

    Now much has been said, laughed and scoffed, theorized and plain guessed at what is or is not happening.

    What I can say without question is RF energy inside the individual pieces of audio does move around in various methods, conducted (along transmission lines, cabling, circuit boards and connectors) plus Radiated RF through the air/case work.

    There are tests specifically designed for CE approval that limit these EMC emissions to a particular standard (CISPER) so surely if the device has passed CE then there is no problem right? One of the testing procedures for this standard is immunity testing where an induced am modulated pulse is put into the DUT (device under test) DC and AC power supplies to stimulate a response to see how it stands up to outside RF.

    Now what I can say is I have spent a long time on this subject (not just audio emissions) you can measure the amount of RF ingress via several different ways, Rf passive probes, TEM cells and if you have the budget RF current probes and quality spectrum analyses plus a network analyzer for other measurements related to cabling.

    one of these probes is used for this very application see below.

    RF current probe

    In my investigations with this subject what I can demonstrate (repeatably as well) is that RF energy travels along the grounding cabling from the audio equipment to the grounding device I have measured upwards to 48uV of current moving to grounding box/device.

    Does this effect the sound?, I firmly believe it does without question, though as it has been said different people has observed different results.


    I do have some measurement images I can show, but not today they are on the Lab PC not the office one! Have also measured six different manufacturers grounding products, some shall we say are more effective at removing this rf noise than others.
    All you proved is that it is an antenna. You cannot reverse the direction of electrons by changing the tuning of an antenna. Changing antenna configuration simply changes the spectrum it is going to pick up the most.

    You can replicate a grounding box by running the same wire to aluminum window. In fact if you have an aluminum window just run a wire and save yourself a box and grounding post.

    Think about your example of 0v. It's not just that it's 0v, it's that it gives up free electrons to the demanding charge. Would the antenna be at 0v? Does it have free electrons to give? No. It's not a battery, capacitor, or generator. Let's look at a grounding rod. If you go outside and plug in a wire to a socket's hot end and then start touching the ground with it, does it spark all over the place? No it does nothing because the voltage is too low. The complete circuit includes resistance too high for anything to happen. In fact it's such a high impedance path that earth ground is a noise source for audio equipment. Studios and such try to improve the earth ground as much as possible to reduce the noise it introduces, not to remove existing noise. It is an antenna. People forget that Neutral and ground are tied at the breaker box, which is why you can use (safety) ground as a shield as it won't drain through the audio parts, but makes a complete circuit.

    (Why does a down power line arc and spark? Because it's at 150,000-700,000v not 115/230v)

    Simple advice I have is if you like the way they sound use them, but please don't try to tell the world that your foil with a pure copper wire going to it, in an electrically transparent box filled with kitty litter first invented by tractor repair guy was smarter than all institutions of higher learning and research; about the make-up of our reality.

  6. #26
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Gerrards Cross

    Posts: 2,592
    I'm Tony.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pharos View Post
    "49uV of current"?

    My education must all be wrong.
    Anyway I've just placed a thick piece of spare mains cable from the Hi-Fi to the cat's litter tray, and I'm waiting for him to piss in it.
    Well Dennis why do you try that you may find illuminating.

    You see this why forums are both delightful and full of people seeking entertainment outside the mundane lives full internet warriors won a mission to Mars via a vespa, spoiling for a fight



    Your eduction is not incorrect just my typing skills and size of my hands are shall we say are not up to par today.

    For the correct actual measured unit you are looking for is dBuA decibel micro amps for which I can only apologise for my typo and Sunday afternoon litter tray surfing.

    Let is look at how this is arrived at first of all we take the transfer impedance at a given frequency we are looking at say 30Mhz (top of the Cisper 14 standard) the transfer impedance at this point would 18.09 which you would subtract from the given reading on your instrument which would in dBuV this would then deliver the correct value in dBuA

    one observation I would like to make at least three of the devices tested have zero foils or connecting wires / cat littler or vampire poo inside.


    Like cables this subject will cause division across the the great audio divide please do get on with the slanging match but jumping on people is very rude let them speak, then have your say cat piss try not withstanding
    Last edited by Mr. C; 26-07-2020 at 21:05.
    Coherent Systems
    Real high end sound with musicality not hifi

  7. #27
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Gerrards Cross

    Posts: 2,592
    I'm Tony.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Folsom View Post

    Have is if you like the way they sound use them, but please don't try to tell the world that your foil with a pure copper wire going to it, in an electrically transparent box filled with kitty litter first invented by tractor repair guy was smarter than all institutions of higher learning and research; about the make-up of our reality.

    Hello Folsom

    I do not believe I did suggest cat piss absorber in a box was a great product or that mains voltage is another more than 50/60Hz at consumer level here or across the pond.

    The frequencies I am talking about are much higher, and do have an effect on a lot of electronic circuits not just audio funny you should mention higher seats of learning earlier this year I attended a specialist conference organised by Rohde and Schwarz in which one of the lectures was specifically aimed at low frequency EMC emissions and the problem it causes and generates by Lee Hill, founding partner of SILENT Solutions LLC & GmbH he lectures at Oxford Uni during the the lecture was aim at 1Mhz and under (DC in RF engineers eyes any way!) very interesting indeed and very relevant.

    And no alloy window frames and cat litter granules were not discussed.

    I sure the tractor engineer is doing well selling his vampire poo to those who wish to purchase it.
    Coherent Systems
    Real high end sound with musicality not hifi

  8. #28
    Join Date: Nov 2011

    Location: Seaton, Devon, UK

    Posts: 5,931
    I'm Adrian.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pharos View Post
    "49uV of current"?

    My education must all be wrong.
    Anyway I've just placed a thick piece of spare mains cable from the Hi-Fi to the cat's litter tray, and I'm waiting for him to piss in it.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    [FONT="Arial"]
    Listening is the act of aural discrimination and dissemination of sound, and accepting you get it wrong sometimes


    Pro-Ject Signature 10 TT & arm, Benz Micro LP-S & Michel Cusis MC cartridge, Furutech AG-12-R4 High Performance Phono Cable, LFD MMC special phono stage, Rothwell MCX SUT, RaspberryPi/HifiBerry Digi to Beresford Caiman SEG DAC, Sony 3d blu-Ray for CDs to Caiman SEG, ALLNIC T1500 MKII SET 300B amp, Wilson Benesch Vector speakers and JBL L100 Century's , Chord Epic speaker leads, & signature links, the Eccose Conductor CA1 cd to pre, I think I am at audio nirvana, but donít tell anyone

  9. #29
    Join Date: Jul 2020

    Location: Pacific NorthWest

    Posts: 27
    I'm Jeremy.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. C View Post
    Hello Folsom

    I do not believe I did suggest cat piss absorber in a box was a great product or that mains voltage is another more than 50/60Hz at consumer level here or across the pond.

    The frequencies I am talking about are much higher, and do have an effect on a lot of electronic circuits not just audio funny you should mention higher seats of learning earlier this year I attended a specialist conference organised by Rohde and Schwarz in which one of the lectures was specifically aimed at low frequency EMC emissions and the problem it causes and generates by Lee Hill, founding partner of SILENT Solutions LLC & GmbH he lectures at Oxford Uni during the the lecture was aim at 1Mhz and under (DC in RF engineers eyes any way!) very interesting indeed and very relevant.

    And no alloy window frames and cat litter granules were not discussed.

    I sure the tractor engineer is doing well selling his vampire poo to those who wish to purchase it.
    Whoaa, I had no idea someone called grounding boxes vampire poo.

    Kitty litter is the nick name for the stuff in grounding boxes, it's usually a bunch of piezo materials.

    EMC emission is fascinating. (may even contribute to alzheimer's) But as you say that wasn't discussed. All of them would tell you the same thing, a "grounding" box is an antenna. What they don't know is how to explain why it can result in sonic improvements, because from their perspective adding RF cannot be an improvement under any lens. However we in the audio world know not all improvements are gained through better measurements.

  10. #30
    Join Date: Oct 2008

    Location: Glasgowshire

    Posts: 8,393
    I'm Gary.

    Default

    Connecting a spare length of interconnect connected only at ground, from a spare RCA socket running to an (Earth connected only) plug hooked up to the wall can sound better too.
    Equipment dependant as per usual.

    Similar thinking?
    Enjoying Hifi 'n stuff.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 3 of 13 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •