Ben Duncan mains conditioner
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RME Audio ADI-2 FS (AK4493) DAC
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Audioquest Crimson USB interconnect
QED Quartz Reference optical interconnect
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They are a few of the devices on the market some claiming wondrous things and others just sit in the corner and quietly do they their thing.
The biggest issue for most folks is the term 'grounding' this is not an a main earth relationship in any way. Grounding refers to the reference voltage in a circuit which is '0' volts to which both positive and negative voltages are reference from.
For example a vehicle battery system is 12v has black and red terminals this 0-12Vdc the black terminal being 0 volts.
In a pre amplifier for example they will be dual rails usually capable of +/- 6-18Vdc giving a total rail to rail swing of up to 36vdc.
So 0 volts is what most people would call ground and in the vast majority of audio equipment you may have many independent grounds, this will have potential difference between them, so very small other no so.
Ideally all grounds within a component be be absolute zero across all of the ground reference planes.
Theory being that by joining all of these ground planes together in all of your equipment they have a one single reference point.
Now much has been said, laughed and scoffed, theorized and plain guessed at what is or is not happening.
What I can say without question is RF energy inside the individual pieces of audio does move around in various methods, conducted (along transmission lines, cabling, circuit boards and connectors) plus Radiated RF through the air/case work.
There are tests specifically designed for CE approval that limit these EMC emissions to a particular standard (CISPER) so surely if the device has passed CE then there is no problem right? One of the testing procedures for this standard is immunity testing where an induced am modulated pulse is put into the DUT (device under test) DC and AC power supplies to stimulate a response to see how it stands up to outside RF.
Now what I can say is I have spent a long time on this subject (not just audio emissions) you can measure the amount of RF ingress via several different ways, Rf passive probes, TEM cells and if you have the budget RF current probes and quality spectrum analyses plus a network analyzer for other measurements related to cabling.
one of these probes is used for this very application see below.
RF current probe
In my investigations with this subject what I can demonstrate (repeatably as well) is that RF energy travels along the grounding cabling from the audio equipment to the grounding device I have measured upwards to 48uV of current moving to grounding box/device.
Does this effect the sound?, I firmly believe it does without question, though as it has been said different people has observed different results.
I do have some measurement images I can show, but not today they are on the Lab PC not the office one! Have also measured six different manufacturers grounding products, some shall we say are more effective at removing this rf noise than others.
Coherent Systems
Real high end sound with musicality not hifi
Location: Seaford UK
Posts: 1,861
I'm Dennis.
"49uV of current"?
My education must all be wrong.
Anyway I've just placed a thick piece of spare mains cable from the Hi-Fi to the cat's litter tray, and I'm waiting for him to piss in it.
Location: Pacific NorthWest
Posts: 110
I'm Jeremy.
All you proved is that it is an antenna. You cannot reverse the direction of electrons by changing the tuning of an antenna. Changing antenna configuration simply changes the spectrum it is going to pick up the most.
You can replicate a grounding box by running the same wire to aluminum window. In fact if you have an aluminum window just run a wire and save yourself a box and grounding post.
Think about your example of 0v. It's not just that it's 0v, it's that it gives up free electrons to the demanding charge. Would the antenna be at 0v? Does it have free electrons to give? No. It's not a battery, capacitor, or generator. Let's look at a grounding rod. If you go outside and plug in a wire to a socket's hot end and then start touching the ground with it, does it spark all over the place? No it does nothing because the voltage is too low. The complete circuit includes resistance too high for anything to happen. In fact it's such a high impedance path that earth ground is a noise source for audio equipment. Studios and such try to improve the earth ground as much as possible to reduce the noise it introduces, not to remove existing noise. It is an antenna. People forget that Neutral and ground are tied at the breaker box, which is why you can use (safety) ground as a shield as it won't drain through the audio parts, but makes a complete circuit.
(Why does a down power line arc and spark? Because it's at 150,000-700,000v not 115/230v)
Simple advice I have is if you like the way they sound use them, but please don't try to tell the world that your foil with a pure copper wire going to it, in an electrically transparent box filled with kitty litter first invented by tractor repair guy was smarter than all institutions of higher learning and research; about the make-up of our reality.
Well Dennis why do you try that you may find illuminating.
You see this why forums are both delightful and full of people seeking entertainment outside the mundane lives full internet warriors won a mission to Mars via a vespa, spoiling for a fight
Your eduction is not incorrect just my typing skills and size of my hands are shall we say are not up to par today.
For the correct actual measured unit you are looking for is dBuA decibel micro amps for which I can only apologise for my typo and Sunday afternoon litter tray surfing.
Let is look at how this is arrived at first of all we take the transfer impedance at a given frequency we are looking at say 30Mhz (top of the Cisper 14 standard) the transfer impedance at this point would 18.09 which you would subtract from the given reading on your instrument which would in dBuV this would then deliver the correct value in dBuA
one observation I would like to make at least three of the devices tested have zero foils or connecting wires / cat littler or vampire poo inside.
Like cables this subject will cause division across the the great audio divide please do get on with the slanging match but jumping on people is very rude let them speak, then have your say cat piss try not withstanding
Last edited by Mr. C; 26-07-2020 at 21:05.
Coherent Systems
Real high end sound with musicality not hifi
Hello Folsom
I do not believe I did suggest cat piss absorber in a box was a great product or that mains voltage is another more than 50/60Hz at consumer level here or across the pond.
The frequencies I am talking about are much higher, and do have an effect on a lot of electronic circuits not just audio funny you should mention higher seats of learning earlier this year I attended a specialist conference organised by Rohde and Schwarz in which one of the lectures was specifically aimed at low frequency EMC emissions and the problem it causes and generates by Lee Hill, founding partner of SILENT Solutions LLC & GmbH he lectures at Oxford Uni during the the lecture was aim at 1Mhz and under (DC in RF engineers eyes any way!) very interesting indeed and very relevant.
And no alloy window frames and cat litter granules were not discussed.
I sure the tractor engineer is doing well selling his vampire poo to those who wish to purchase it.
Coherent Systems
Real high end sound with musicality not hifi
Listening is the act of aural discrimination and dissemination of sound, and accepting you get it wrong sometimes.
Analog Inputs: Pro-Ject Signature 10 TT & arm, Benz Micro LP-S, Michel Cusis MC, Goldring 2500 and Ortofon Rondo Blue cartridges, Hitachi FT5500 mk2 Tuner
Digital:- Marantz SA-KI Pearl CD player, RaspberryPi/HifiBerry Digi+ Pro, Buffalo NAS Drive
Amplification:- AudioValve Sunilda phono stage, Krell KSP-7B pre-amp, Krell KSA-80 power amp
Output: Wilson Benesch Vector speakers, KLH Ultimate One Headphones
Cables: Tellurium Q Ultra Black II RCA & Chord Epic 2 RCA, various speaker leads, & links
I think I am nearing audio nirvana, but don’t tell anyone.
Location: Pacific NorthWest
Posts: 110
I'm Jeremy.
Whoaa, I had no idea someone called grounding boxes vampire poo.
Kitty litter is the nick name for the stuff in grounding boxes, it's usually a bunch of piezo materials.
EMC emission is fascinating. (may even contribute to alzheimer's) But as you say that wasn't discussed. All of them would tell you the same thing, a "grounding" box is an antenna. What they don't know is how to explain why it can result in sonic improvements, because from their perspective adding RF cannot be an improvement under any lens. However we in the audio world know not all improvements are gained through better measurements.
Connecting a spare length of interconnect connected only at ground, from a spare RCA socket running to an (Earth connected only) plug hooked up to the wall can sound better too.
Equipment dependant as per usual.
Similar thinking?
AC POWER
Hardwired 10kVA balanced mains powering entire system
AMPS
Meridian 557 power Amp (Modded) / PS Audio BHK Preamp (Modded)
SPEAKERS
Wharfedale Evo 4.4
DAC
PS Audio Directstream (Modded)
TURNTABLE
Pro-Ject X8 balanced output via XLR / Ortofon Quintet Blue cartridge
PHONOSTAGE
Pro-Ject DS3 B balanced Input (TT and Phonostage powered by Pro-Ject Power box RS2 linear psu)
DIGITAL
OPPO 203 (Modded: Linear PSU, i2s output to Dac) - Roon Endpoint, HDMI input used for all things Streaming/ PS5 /AppleTV ... also good for movies apparently?
MUSIC PLAYBACK
Tweaked AP-Linux based Roon Server into Oppo 203 as Roon endpoint
Ipad Roon Remote.
Apple Music/ YouTube via AppleTV, fed to Dac via Oppo HDMI input/i2s output to Dac.
SPEAKER CABLES
Biwired: Duelund DCA10GA (Bass) Duelund DCA16GA (mid & treble) Duelund 12DCA used as jumpers (On "Blackcat Cable" Chris Sommivigo's advice - yup, even with biwire it sounds better - and it does)
INTERCONNECTS
All Balanced: Ghost+ recording studio XLR cables