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  1. #11
    Join Date: Feb 2008

    Location: SW England, UK

    Posts: 76

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    A Decca London cartridge may be a good call.
    Roger.

  2. #12
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Hi Roger,

    By the way how much are the A23 SUTs, I have seen the web site but no price list.
    £495, from James at The Sound Practice

    How would you compare an AT33PTG with a DL 103 pro as these are both japanese cartridges going back in time?
    Both are excellent cartridges in their own right. The 103 Pro is significantly better than the stock 103, due to its superior high-frequency response, but still suffers from the effects of its rather resonant plastic body-shell.

    Therefore, to get the best from it, you have to 'nude' it and remove the body-shell and/or replace the shell with something of better quality. However, my advice if you want a 'fancy' 103 is to either buy an 'SA' or the ZU-modified version, as IMO those are the best sounding 103s on the market.

    The AT33PTG and (any) 103 are quite different in terms of the way that, in general, AT and Denon MC cartridges are voiced by their respective manufacturers.

    ATs have a 'lighter' overall balance, majoring on treble purity, fine detail retrieval and midrange clarity, whereas Denons tend to sound more 'full-bodied' with better bass weight (but not in an exaggerated sense) and have a very communicative 'valve-like' midrange, losing out slightly to the ATs at the top-end in terms of their treble purity, but lacking their at times 'brightly-lit' nature (in the case of the OC-9), which can prove a problem with badly recorded material in some systems, although they can also add sparkle to 'dull cuts' on vinyl.

    The AT33PTG, however, is one of the few AT cartridges I could live with, because although it doesn't quite have the bass 'slam' of the 103, it has considerably more low-end heft than any other AT cartridge I've heard to date, which has the effect of adding body and texture to the midrange and ensuring that the top-end doesn't draw attention to itself due to it being rather 'exposed' as a result of a lack of low frequency extension, in the case of the OC-9.

    Therefore, the AT33PTG (unfortunately I believe now discontinued) is/was the ideal halfway house between the respective sonic attributes of the OC-9 and the DL-103.

    As for Deccas, they're a different ball-game altogether! Set-up though with these is critical, as is having the right tonearm, but get it right and the results are stunning, or so I believe, as I've yet to hear one in my system. That situation, however, will shortly be rectified when Barry loans me his London Gold, which I'm very much looking forward to listening to!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  3. #13
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Hi Dave,

    Don't get too hung up on spending thousands on a cartridge, 'cos all they're going to be doing is trying to get the most out of an often (bass) compromised bit of plastic which is several generations away from the lacquer which was cut.
    Indeed. Neither is there much point when the vinyl concerned has been cut from a digital master, so all you're doing is reproducing that information by adding more distortion!

    Vinyl does come into its own though, sonically, when recordings have been made from an analogue master and most of the recording chain is analogue-based.

    Following on from the above paragraph, I'd personally say that the best 103's and AT33 series are two sides of the coin. The AT majors on treble purity and definition (if it's there) and the 103 (alright Marco, the SPU as well when properly set up) I feel, majors on bass power and "slam" - if it hasn't been filtered out at the cutting stage.
    Yup, I'd go with that, but there are other differences too, as I outlined in my previous post.

    My only concern regarding very expensive cartridges is that there really isn't much more you can get off the record these days and the pricing reflects an attempt to make more money from wealthy enthusiasts by using gem stones for the body, silver wires (what wire was used in the cutting head?) and other exotic materials..
    I mostly agree. There are some genuinely superb hi-end cartridges out there, which get you closer to 'the truth', but by and large most flatter to decieve, where one can achieve the same performance (or indeed sometimes better) from a cartridge with a less 'desirable badge', and in turn less exorbitant price tag.

    However, I disagree with your "what wire was used in the cutting head?" remark. It's not about replicating the ancillaries used in the recording studio; it's about faithfully replicating their sonic effect on music reproduced. Therefore whatever wires, silver or otherwise, best achieve that, in conjunction with the overall sonic accuracy of the cartridge, in a system, is by definition the 'best wire'. *That* is what hi-fi is about.

    I mean, Marco has suggested to me that he felt that with his 103SA, a high input impedance of 400 Ohms (what the 103 is supposed to need) made it sound brighter and I understand he didn't care for it as much. My "take" is that 400 Ohms may well be the most neutral balance, and using a lower setting actually rolls the treble region off a tad, which was found preferable.
    You're entitled to your opinion, Dave, and I understand where you're coming from, but from considerable experience of using 103s in a multitude of set-ups, I totally disagree.

    The fact is, both Denon's own SUTs (designed to partner the 103) and the A23, load it at 100 Ohms (or just over), so if that
    wasn't the optimal setting, it wouldn't be used on those units, plain and simple.

    Also, experience tells me that where SUTs are concerned one cannot get too bogged down with 'correct' impedance figures, as the rule books often go out the window when the acid listening tests are carried out.

    A valid case in point is the original Ortofon SPU transformer Barry has loaned me for my SPU, that according to calculations, doesn't load the cartridge with anything like the impedance value which is technically optimal, according to the spec. Barry will be able to elaborate further and explain better here than I can.

    And yet the transformer sounds fantastic with the SPU - and not because it's tailoring the sound in any way, but merely voicing it correctly to optimise its sonic characteristics!

    The Zenon *should* be able to take a Decca, as the 100S does so beautifully. With a *modern* Decca in a suitable arm, you'll have drama right across the frequency range that ordinary cartridges haven't a clue about, you won't need a step-up - but you will need a phono stage with huge headroom - and when playing records you'll have such a silly smug grin on your face and pity the poor misguided saps who still rave about 103's and SPU's.......
    Hehehe... Aye!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  4. #14
    Join Date: Feb 2008

    Location: SW England, UK

    Posts: 76

    Default

    Marco
    Just out of interest what arms deliver the best results with Decca London carts, other than a Decca unipivot arm?
    Thanks
    Roger
    Roger.

  5. #15
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Default

    Hi Roger,

    Barry uses an SME 3009, amongst others, with his Deccas - and gets excellent results.

    Deccas, however, are not my area of expertise, so may I suggest you direct your query either to Barry or 'Big Moog' (Jonathan Stanley) who are much more knowledgeable about such matters. hifi dave and DSJR are also another option

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  6. #16
    Join Date: May 2008

    Location: A Strangely Isolated Place in Suffolk with Far Away Trains Passing By...

    Posts: 14,535
    I'm David.

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    Seriously, may I respectfully suggest the use of a Deccapod style fixing on the lower caste models, as it tames the body and enables better coupling to the arm I feel. the Jubilee and London Reference are differant kettles of fish altogether and I have no experience of these, sadly.

    The arm MUST be stable and reasonably free of resonance. The Hadcocks of old were a marriage made in heaven at the time and the NAS arms worked superbly too, my old Mentor mk1 arm I had being stable (with internal stabilisers to prevent wobble). The HR100S was superb with the Decca Export (Silver) I heard it with and I'm sure the Jelco 750 series will be great too with a touch of damping added (?).

    My MicroScanner awaits
    Tear down these walls; Cut the ties that held me
    Crying out at the top of my voice; Tell me now if you can hear me

  7. #17
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 31,859
    I'm openingabottleofwine.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Flyfisher View Post
    Marco
    Just out of interest what arms deliver the best results with Decca London carts, other than a Decca unipivot arm?
    Thanks
    Roger

    Though your query Roger is not addressed to me, I think I can help.

    Most unipivot designs are good: the Keith Monks arm and the Hadcock arms, as these all have pivot damping. Can't comment on the Naim Aro, as I have no experience of it.

    Basically any arm for which you can apply pivot damping will do; owing to the pitifully low vertical compliance (3.5cu) the Decca puts a lot of energy into the arm, and unless damped, will have a high amplitude LF resonance that will affect the bass response.

    At the moment I'm listening to a Decca Gold (the Mk. VI), with elliptical tip fitted to an SME 3009/II arm with the FD200 damping dashpot. All Deccas are a pig to set up, and the set up is crucial. No other cartridge is, in my experience, as fussy to get right as a Decca. But when you do, no other cartridge can do what a Decca does. I'll be writing up my recent experience and set up details (both mechanical and electrical) shortly.

    When my Decca goes off to "strut its stuff" for Marco, I may try out my Decca Blue (the Mk. V) with a conical stylus. I have two Decca arms: the ffss Super, fitted with magnetic bias (this arm uses conventional needle bearings), and the London International (which is a unipivot). Again I may use these, or if I'm feeling lazy, continue to use the SME.

    Regards
    Last edited by Barry; 13-07-2010 at 00:22. Reason: typos
    Barry

  8. #18
    Join Date: Feb 2008

    Location: SW England, UK

    Posts: 76

    Default

    Barry

    I have two quite different arms that I could use plugged straight into the MM input of my Art Audio Vinyl One phono stage:

    Alpahason Xenon
    or
    12" Jelco (which can be damped, I believe)

    Any preferences.

    Thanks

    Roger
    Roger.

  9. #19
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 31,859
    I'm openingabottleofwine.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Flyfisher View Post
    Barry

    I have two quite different arms that I could use plugged straight into the MM input of my Art Audio Vinyl One phono stage:

    Alpahason Xenon
    or
    12" Jelco (which can be damped, I believe)

    Any preferences.

    Thanks

    Roger
    Hello Roger,

    That's a tough call. As Dave has said, any arm used needs to be reasonably free of resonance and I have a lot of respect for the, now sadly defunct, Alphason HR100S. Your Alphason Xenon is a development of the HR100S, so ought to be OK, especially if it continued to use the superb ceramic ball bearings of the 100S.

    I have set up my Decca in a Jelco headshell, loaned to me by Marco, so that he will be able to hear the cartridge in his own Jelco arm. I don't believe that one can apply damping to Jelco arms, but if the bearings are good enough (which I believe they are), then the 'excess energy' I spoke of, ought to be ducted through the arm and 'earthed', or dissipated, by the mass of your deck.

    Suggest you wait until Marco has heard the Decca in his own (9") Jelco arm and reports his findings before you make a move. One thing I can tell you is that the most recent Decca's (or London's as they should now be called; i.e. those made by Peter Wright) will be a lot better behaved and less trouble than the older models.

    Trust this is of some help.

    Regards
    Barry

  10. #20
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Default

    Hi Barry,

    Just a quick correction:

    I don't believe that one can apply damping to Jelco arms....
    Actually, the Jelco SA-750D ('D' for damping) is damped from a well in the top of the bearing housing, which thus provides the necessary pivot damping for the tonearm. When I bought the Jelco, I added the silicone fluid provided. Therefore, with this and its quality bearings, the Jelco should hopefully work well with the Decca

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


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