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Thread: Ortofon Cadenza Black - Fritz Geiger club

  1. #21
    Join Date: Apr 2011

    Location: London

    Posts: 4,419
    I'm Robert.

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    All set up parameters are very important, especially with the more sophisticated line contact profiles like the Shibatas and the FGS.

    The FGS is cut to actually mimic the record cutting lathe.....

    I've copied over a few things from Galen Carol audio, Cartridge alignment page, as it's not only accurate, the articulation is also better than mine

    Vertical Tracking Force (VTF)
    etting tracking force is the very first step in setting up a cartridge (though it will be repeated later to fine tune). The cartridge manufacturer will recommend a range (e.g. 1.75g - 2.0g) that is appropriate for their design. Too little tracking force and the stylus will not seat properly in the groove, too much tracking force and you'll overload the internal suspension, and both resulting in a loss of performance. Interestingly, too little tracking is more likely to increase wear than a setting which is slightly too high.

    More than just applying force to seat the stylus in the groove, the correct tracking force aligns the internal generator assembly. For a finely tuned rig, it is important to experiment within the manufacturers recommended range to find the precise point that gives the best sound

    Overhang: As the stylus tracks across the record, it is important that the stylus remain tangent to the groove. Setting overhang we are aligning the cartridge to follow that ideal arc across the record. In a radial tracking tonearm, there are only a couple of points when it actually is tangent (null points). Without getting overly bogged down in technicalities, there are at least a couple of theories about where the null points should be, and so some gauges are slightly different than others depending on which the manufacturer thinks is best.
    To set overhang, you'll need an alignment gauge. There are a number of overhang gauges available through the years (DB Systems, Denessen Soundtractor, Mobile Fidelity Geodisc, to name a few). People usually like the one they've used before, but even the simple template provided with your turntable or tonearm are useable.

    VTA or SRA: VTA is an abbreviation for vertical tracking angle, SRA stands for stylus rake angle. The two terms (while not exactly the same, technically speaking) are often used interchangeably to describe the relative angle of the stylus to the groove. (Though I'd say SRA is the more accurate term, most audiophiles are more familiar with VTA, so I'll stick with it here). This angle is normally adjusted by raising or lowering the back of the tonearm (although shims can be used between the headshell and cartridge).

    Correct VTA/SRA is achieved when the angle of the playback stylus matches that of the cutting stylus used to make the original master lacquer. Because the angle of the record lathe cutter head (normally specified as twenty degrees, plus or minus five degrees) varies to some degree from manufacturer to manufacturer, we must adjust our VTA to achieve optimum playback results. Other variables such as record thickness, stylus shape and variations in cartridge construction, also make VTA adjustment necessary.

    Due to stylus shape and size, some cartridges will be more sensitive to VTA than others. Generally, the more radical the stylus cut, the more sensitive to proper adjustment of VTA. All cartridges however, will benefit, at least to a degree, from proper VTA alignment.

    Azimuth is also on the page, but described in a lot of detail land in a way that makes setting it an awful lot of hassle, in my opinion of course. Personally I use my eyes, looking front at the cartridge to see the bottom of the cart body is parallel to the record surface. It says this isnt exactly right and goes into a lot about dedicated cartridge analysers, Fozgometer and channel testing. phase talk etc etc
    As well as careful eyeballing, i use on of those see through, acrylic plastic, blocks, with the grid lines on. Easy to use and cheap as chips. I also use one of the tiny, headshell, spirit levels - nothings perfect but these things will defo get you there without the science.

    Zenith: Aligning the stylus within the groove in the horizontal plane dials in zenith. Looking down on the cartridge from above, zenith is changed by rotating the cartridge (as if around a clock face). Of course there is only a very small amount of adjustment possible on most arms, just the play in the mounting screws.

    Zenith is best adjusted using test equipment, but one can (assuming the stylus is correctly mounted to the cantilever) also adjust by eye using an overhang gauge with an alignment grid. Simply sight down the cantilever from the front, aligning it with the line directly below it on the gauge.

    Anti-skate, my guess is we all pretty much know the usual rule with this one ie: start approximately about the same as the cartridge manufacturers, recommended tracking force ie: 2g = 2 on your antiskate and so....


    Summary:
    It would be difficult to overstress the importance of proper cartridge alignment. If you expect to get all the performance promised by your costly investment in analog, these adjustments simply must be made. So please take the time to insure that your arm/cartridge combination is properly set-up
    Last edited by RobbieGong; 13-06-2020 at 10:37.
    My System:
    Amplification - Sansui AU-alpha 707 DR
    Turntable - Technics SP10 MK2-Technics EPA-250 Tonearm-Yannis Tome 423.5Plus tonearm cable-Eichmann KLEI Absolute Harmony plugs.
    Ortofon Cadenza Black moving coil cartridge-Fritz Gyger S re-tip. Panzerholz plinth.

    CDP - Pioneer PD-91
    Speakers - Spendor D7 on Soundcare SuperSpikes
    QED Silver Spiral speaker cable-airloc banana plugs
    Mains - Ultra Pure silver plated un-switched socket-Missing link EPS 500 silver plated plugs-Hi-Fi Tuning gold plated silver ceramic 13 amp fuses

  2. #22
    Join Date: Sep 2014

    Location: brighton uk.

    Posts: 4,737
    I'm jamie.

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    here's another which is excellent reading.

    https://walkeraudio.com/lloyd-walker...r-turntable-2/
    My System
    John Wood KT88 Amp.
    Paradise Phono Stage
    Sony TTS-8000 Turntable.
    PMAT-1010 MK6 Tonearm.
    Ortofon Cadenza Bronze
    Sony X555ES Cd Player
    Yamaha NS1000m Speakers

  3. #23
    Join Date: Nov 2010

    Location: Yorkshire

    Posts: 9,325
    I'm Andrew.

    Default

    WOW o WOW what an amazing last couple of posts. Thanks guys, however I have a cunning plan. I've decided I've had enough of buggering about. I'll be getting a Fozgometer. This should make VTA alignment a piece of pi$$. I've got Dr. Feickhart protractor and this has proven to be very useful, I've now got null point alignment setup bang on according to Feickhart. I've put out an APB to forum subscribers and trade dealers to see if they can get me a cheap Fozgometer. I'll give this a few days and then I'll pull the trigger on ebay. I'll be buggering about with loading plugs in the back of the phonostage to see how that effects what I'm hearing.
    SS
    CD Teac VRDS25X(Audiotuned) DECK 1210 Mat Crystal Audio Mods MN Base/Bearing/Platter+Ebony armboard Feet Isonoe PSU Paul Hynes SR7EHD-27XL/DCSXL Ag DC lead/3 Stage Regs/Recap PCB+No Pitch/Strobe/Light ARM SME V(Kondo Ag Rewire&Tags) MC Cadenza Black FGS CABLES Arm Yannis SPD-4 IC Yannis 222 Litz+Ag bullets Power WAR PRE ATC SCA2 SPEAKERS ATC 50ASL STANDS Atacama PHONO Sugden Masterclass PA4 SUT Ortofon ST80SE POWER PSAudio P10

    VALVE
    PRE
    Croft Epoch(Modded) AMP Sondex S100 (Modded) SPEAKERS Tannoy 15"MG+RFC Warwick cabs+ Ref XO + Batpure supertweeters DECK Garrard 301 Mat Teunto Bearings 401(Bastin) Plinth Bamboo Arms 3009/3012 PSU Eagle+Tachometer MC Ag Meister II/FGS + Ortofon SPU MONO CABLES Arm Yannis 420.5 Litz+ SpeakerPC Tripple C+WBT-0681 Ag IC Oyaide FTVS-510 AgWBT 0110Ag Phonostages Paradise(4 Box Mega-Modded) / Croft Musicmaker



  4. #24
    Join Date: Nov 2010

    Location: Yorkshire

    Posts: 9,325
    I'm Andrew.

    Default

    10 days of trial and error and I think we have a winner. After messing around with the VTA at 0.5mm increments two things happen.
    With the tonearm at 14mm parallel height from the record surface we have raised surface noise but amazing slam, attack, forensic detail retrieval, all that I remember when I first got the CB all those years ago and this is with the tonearm's rear end raised. With the tonearm at 15mm parallel height from the record surface we have lowered surface noise but a drop in slam, attack, aggression, soundstage width and to a slightly lesser extent, detail retrieval, again tonearm arse end is pretty far back. I've played around with -ve rake angle and I think I've got it as good as I can. So overall, much happier.
    SS
    CD Teac VRDS25X(Audiotuned) DECK 1210 Mat Crystal Audio Mods MN Base/Bearing/Platter+Ebony armboard Feet Isonoe PSU Paul Hynes SR7EHD-27XL/DCSXL Ag DC lead/3 Stage Regs/Recap PCB+No Pitch/Strobe/Light ARM SME V(Kondo Ag Rewire&Tags) MC Cadenza Black FGS CABLES Arm Yannis SPD-4 IC Yannis 222 Litz+Ag bullets Power WAR PRE ATC SCA2 SPEAKERS ATC 50ASL STANDS Atacama PHONO Sugden Masterclass PA4 SUT Ortofon ST80SE POWER PSAudio P10

    VALVE
    PRE
    Croft Epoch(Modded) AMP Sondex S100 (Modded) SPEAKERS Tannoy 15"MG+RFC Warwick cabs+ Ref XO + Batpure supertweeters DECK Garrard 301 Mat Teunto Bearings 401(Bastin) Plinth Bamboo Arms 3009/3012 PSU Eagle+Tachometer MC Ag Meister II/FGS + Ortofon SPU MONO CABLES Arm Yannis 420.5 Litz+ SpeakerPC Tripple C+WBT-0681 Ag IC Oyaide FTVS-510 AgWBT 0110Ag Phonostages Paradise(4 Box Mega-Modded) / Croft Musicmaker



  5. #25
    Join Date: Apr 2011

    Location: London

    Posts: 4,419
    I'm Robert.

    Default

    Hows it going Andy ??
    My System:
    Amplification - Sansui AU-alpha 707 DR
    Turntable - Technics SP10 MK2-Technics EPA-250 Tonearm-Yannis Tome 423.5Plus tonearm cable-Eichmann KLEI Absolute Harmony plugs.
    Ortofon Cadenza Black moving coil cartridge-Fritz Gyger S re-tip. Panzerholz plinth.

    CDP - Pioneer PD-91
    Speakers - Spendor D7 on Soundcare SuperSpikes
    QED Silver Spiral speaker cable-airloc banana plugs
    Mains - Ultra Pure silver plated un-switched socket-Missing link EPS 500 silver plated plugs-Hi-Fi Tuning gold plated silver ceramic 13 amp fuses

  6. #26
    Join Date: Nov 2010

    Location: Yorkshire

    Posts: 9,325
    I'm Andrew.

    Default

    Hi Rob see post #24 I've not played around with the CB-FGS for a few days I'm back on the valve system but overall I'm happy with what I've got. The FGS is a step up from the original CB so overall its a winner.
    SS
    CD Teac VRDS25X(Audiotuned) DECK 1210 Mat Crystal Audio Mods MN Base/Bearing/Platter+Ebony armboard Feet Isonoe PSU Paul Hynes SR7EHD-27XL/DCSXL Ag DC lead/3 Stage Regs/Recap PCB+No Pitch/Strobe/Light ARM SME V(Kondo Ag Rewire&Tags) MC Cadenza Black FGS CABLES Arm Yannis SPD-4 IC Yannis 222 Litz+Ag bullets Power WAR PRE ATC SCA2 SPEAKERS ATC 50ASL STANDS Atacama PHONO Sugden Masterclass PA4 SUT Ortofon ST80SE POWER PSAudio P10

    VALVE
    PRE
    Croft Epoch(Modded) AMP Sondex S100 (Modded) SPEAKERS Tannoy 15"MG+RFC Warwick cabs+ Ref XO + Batpure supertweeters DECK Garrard 301 Mat Teunto Bearings 401(Bastin) Plinth Bamboo Arms 3009/3012 PSU Eagle+Tachometer MC Ag Meister II/FGS + Ortofon SPU MONO CABLES Arm Yannis 420.5 Litz+ SpeakerPC Tripple C+WBT-0681 Ag IC Oyaide FTVS-510 AgWBT 0110Ag Phonostages Paradise(4 Box Mega-Modded) / Croft Musicmaker



  7. #27
    Join Date: Apr 2013

    Location: Solihull, UK

    Posts: 410
    I'm Bob.

    Default

    Did you completely give up on the Fozgometer or is it something you're likely to return to? You seemed quite keen in post #23.
    Source: Orbe SE / SME IV / Cadenza Bronze
    Source: WD NAS / Cyrus Stream X2 / Chord DAVE
    Source: Oppo UDP-205 (CD/DVD-A/SACD)

    Amplification: Icon Audio PS 3 Sig Phono + Audio Research LS27 + Musical Fidelity A5cr Power Amp
    Loudspeakers: ProAc Response D28
    Cables/stands: Mark Grant G1500HD + Linn K20 + Cat 5e
    Other bits: Okki Nokki keeping things clean

  8. #28
    Join Date: Nov 2010

    Location: Yorkshire

    Posts: 9,325
    I'm Andrew.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bob4333 View Post
    Did you completely give up on the Fozgometer or is it something you're likely to return to? You seemed quite keen in post #23.
    No, I'm still very keen and it would prove a useful tool for my SME 3012 and 3009 which have removable headshells to get transverse alignment sorted but I also own a SME V and SME V-12 where a Fozgo would be pointless. I've heard of other methods like a stereo stethoscope and Feickharts (which I own).
    SS
    CD Teac VRDS25X(Audiotuned) DECK 1210 Mat Crystal Audio Mods MN Base/Bearing/Platter+Ebony armboard Feet Isonoe PSU Paul Hynes SR7EHD-27XL/DCSXL Ag DC lead/3 Stage Regs/Recap PCB+No Pitch/Strobe/Light ARM SME V(Kondo Ag Rewire&Tags) MC Cadenza Black FGS CABLES Arm Yannis SPD-4 IC Yannis 222 Litz+Ag bullets Power WAR PRE ATC SCA2 SPEAKERS ATC 50ASL STANDS Atacama PHONO Sugden Masterclass PA4 SUT Ortofon ST80SE POWER PSAudio P10

    VALVE
    PRE
    Croft Epoch(Modded) AMP Sondex S100 (Modded) SPEAKERS Tannoy 15"MG+RFC Warwick cabs+ Ref XO + Batpure supertweeters DECK Garrard 301 Mat Teunto Bearings 401(Bastin) Plinth Bamboo Arms 3009/3012 PSU Eagle+Tachometer MC Ag Meister II/FGS + Ortofon SPU MONO CABLES Arm Yannis 420.5 Litz+ SpeakerPC Tripple C+WBT-0681 Ag IC Oyaide FTVS-510 AgWBT 0110Ag Phonostages Paradise(4 Box Mega-Modded) / Croft Musicmaker



  9. #29
    Join Date: Apr 2011

    Location: London

    Posts: 4,419
    I'm Robert.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by REXTON View Post
    Hi Rob see post #24 I've not played around with the CB-FGS for a few days I'm back on the valve system but overall I'm happy with what I've got. The FGS is a step up from the original CB so overall its a winner.
    Great, I'd seem post #24. I was just asking how things were going post that glad you're happy
    My System:
    Amplification - Sansui AU-alpha 707 DR
    Turntable - Technics SP10 MK2-Technics EPA-250 Tonearm-Yannis Tome 423.5Plus tonearm cable-Eichmann KLEI Absolute Harmony plugs.
    Ortofon Cadenza Black moving coil cartridge-Fritz Gyger S re-tip. Panzerholz plinth.

    CDP - Pioneer PD-91
    Speakers - Spendor D7 on Soundcare SuperSpikes
    QED Silver Spiral speaker cable-airloc banana plugs
    Mains - Ultra Pure silver plated un-switched socket-Missing link EPS 500 silver plated plugs-Hi-Fi Tuning gold plated silver ceramic 13 amp fuses

  10. #30
    Join Date: Apr 2011

    Location: London

    Posts: 4,419
    I'm Robert.

    Default

    Hey Andy,

    Hows it going with your Fritz Gygered Cadenza B ??

    I managed to dial mine in again a few days ago after the usual long fatiguing efforts to set it up properly.

    I've had two days of long extended sessions since, and can honestly say that in my opinion it has everything, just excellent !

    I pray it stays locked in for as long as possible.......
    My System:
    Amplification - Sansui AU-alpha 707 DR
    Turntable - Technics SP10 MK2-Technics EPA-250 Tonearm-Yannis Tome 423.5Plus tonearm cable-Eichmann KLEI Absolute Harmony plugs.
    Ortofon Cadenza Black moving coil cartridge-Fritz Gyger S re-tip. Panzerholz plinth.

    CDP - Pioneer PD-91
    Speakers - Spendor D7 on Soundcare SuperSpikes
    QED Silver Spiral speaker cable-airloc banana plugs
    Mains - Ultra Pure silver plated un-switched socket-Missing link EPS 500 silver plated plugs-Hi-Fi Tuning gold plated silver ceramic 13 amp fuses

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