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Thread: The biggest debate in the history of humankind -Tannoy crossovers original vs new.

  1. #81
    Join Date: May 2020

    Location: Goa, India

    Posts: 143
    I'm Denzil.

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    Hahaha. I do have proper chrome and not those "American things". It does look like the "American things" in that photo. Only the front overrides are black but the original British, small ones, not the huge black ones which the American cars had on the front and back bumbers. Look here.







    Last edited by Denzil; 03-06-2020 at 03:55.
    https://www.instagram.com/elsewheregoa

  2. #82
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,778
    I'm Martin.

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    Ah, must be a trick of the light. That looks outstanding.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  3. #83
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Denzil View Post
    BTW, I just read the areas of interist in your profile, similar to mine. What cars have you been working on of late ? Here's a photo of my Triumph Spitfire in her dehumidified glass box.

    uploading pictures online
    I agree with Martin, your Spitfire looks simply stunning, as indeed does your home and its grounds!

    I love (interesting, quality examples) of classic cars. However, the car I drive is modern (not brand new, though), and although 'interesting' and different in its own right, is nothing quite as exotic as your Triumph. It's a Brabus modified Mercedes C350 CDI, which has had a specialist remap and various other upgrades from standard (to the engine and otherwise), and which has also been fitted with a bespoke sound system.

    It's a fun thing to drive, goes like shit off a shovel (and the stereo is a RIOT), but it isn't as classy as your chosen wheels, so RESPECT man, and enjoy!

    Marco.

    P.S if I was to go down the vintage route, and money was no object, after much deliberation, I'd probably go for a silver Aston Martin DB5, or a red 1963 Alfa Romeo Spider, or maybe a black Corvette Stingray, from the same year - or perhaps all three!!

    Unfortunately cars just aren't that sexy anymore... Blame computers!
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  4. #84
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Hi Charles,

    Sorry for the rather late reply!

    Quote Originally Posted by sailor View Post
    Interesting to see you employing Duelund resistors. I have not yet got around to trying them and really would like to. May I ask you if you compared them to others and what your findings were?

    In the pics I posted of a recent XO rebuild there is a Powertron resistor which is a Vishay foil. I find it extremely clean and detailed but not tolerant of poor recordings. But if there is something better?
    Firstly, yes I tried a few different types of resistors in that position, from Mills (which were good, and a notable step up from the Tannoy originals) to the likes of Mundorfs and Pathaudio, which were vastly superior, especially the latter. However, the Duelund Graphite silvers raised the game considerably, by simply adding (or rather revealing an already existing, but previously masked by distortion) dimension to proceedings, and in turn making music sound much more REAL: warmer, more detailed and organic, but not euphonically coloured, and therefore less like 'hi-fi' (in a bad sense).

    In particular, the Duelunds possessed an uncanny knack of subjectively sounding of 'nothing', other than the signal that they were given, as they exhibited almost no overt inherent sonic signature, and instead simply allowed the music-signal full reign, almost as if I'd managed to hard-wire the circuit without resistors, such was their 'wide-open window' onto the music, therefore making anything else I'd tried up until that point sound markedly more 'contrived', and distinctly like introducing a bottleneck.

    The Duelunds essentially just got out of the way and allowed the rest of the circuit to do its thing, and subsequently the music to 'flow' unhindered, if that makes sense?

    It's the best way I can describe what I heard, and as such I'd wholeheartedly recommend them for use in any high-quality loudspeaker crossovers - not cheap but definitely very effective! This is where I obtained them, and who are a very efficient and reliable supplier of any electronic components for use in audio applications:https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/-c-61_62.html

    At some point, however, in terms of capacitors in the X-overs, I'd like to play around with some quality paper-in-oils, particularly on the mid and high-frequencies, as if you get the balance right, they can add a magic all of their own! Plus, I'd also like to try some of Duelund's superb CAST copper and silver inductors (for low-frequencies), which I'm told are stunning, although also eye-wateringly expensive!

    See here: https://jeffsplace.positive-feedback...w-frequencies/

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  5. #85
    Join Date: Mar 2017

    Location: Seaford UK

    Posts: 1,861
    I'm Dennis.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    "Accurate" to *what*, though?

    Personally, my benchmark will always be to the MUSIC itself (and therefore in allowing it to 'breathe'), not strangling it, as a slave to achieving some notionally 'perfect' measurements. Therefore, for me, the goal ABOVE ALL ELSE, whether in the audio recording or playback chain, is to strive to create as LIFELIKE a sound as possible, ultimately using (good) ears as the arbiter.

    That's what creates REALISM, so that voices sound like REAL voices, and acoustic instruments like REAL instruments.

    *THAT* is true accuracy (and also ultimately the only "accuracy" in audio that matters), as opposed to often a processed, diluted, cardboard cut-out of such, when measurements/readouts on test equipment matter most. In terms of measurements, therefore, 'accuracy' should simply be used as a process to achieve the former, and never an end in itself, because in the final analysis, only the human ear can determine what sounds REAL, not a machine!



    Marco.

    P.S I also love JBLs, but they have a rather different sound, plus their own, equally passionate, cult following!
    Surely those are the aims of the recorders and mixers; the aim of a Hi-Fi system is to reproduce accurately what is recorded.

  6. #86
    Join Date: Mar 2017

    Location: Seaford UK

    Posts: 1,861
    I'm Dennis.

    Default

    "In particular, the Duelunds possessed an uncanny knack of subjectively sounding of 'nothing', other than the signal that they were given, as they exhibited almost no overt inherent sonic signature, and instead simply allowed the music-signal full reign, almost as if I'd managed to hard-wire the circuit without resistors, such was their 'wide-open window' onto the music, therefore making anything else I'd tried up until that point sound markedly more 'contrived', and distinctly like introducing a bottleneck."

    Isn't that a bit of an acknowledgement to objectivity Marco?

  7. #87
    Join Date: May 2020

    Location: Goa, India

    Posts: 143
    I'm Denzil.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I agree with Martin, your Spitfire looks simply stunning, as indeed does your home and its grounds!

    I love (interesting, quality examples) of classic cars. However, the car I drive is modern (not brand new, though), and although 'interesting' and different in its own right, is nothing quite as exotic as your Triumph. It's a Brabus modified Mercedes C350 CDI, which has had a specialist remap and various other upgrades from standard (to the engine and otherwise), and which has also been fitted with a bespoke sound system.

    It's a fun thing to drive, goes like shit off a shovel (and the stereo is a RIOT), but it isn't as classy as your chosen wheels, so RESPECT man, and enjoy!

    Marco.

    P.S if I was to go down the vintage route, and money was no object, after much deliberation, I'd probably go for a silver Aston Martin DB5, or a red 1963 Alfa Romeo Spider, or maybe a black Corvette Stingray, from the same year - or perhaps all three!!

    Unfortunately cars just aren't that sexy anymore... Blame computers!
    Thanks.

    My favourites are the 1980 Aston Martin V8 Vantage, Ford GT 40 and of the new lot the Aston Martin One-77. Your Brabus C350 CDI must be great to drive. Nice solid build too. Brabus do some very exciting work.

    I'll get back to Tannoy crossovers in a couple of hours now
    https://www.instagram.com/elsewheregoa

  8. #88
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pharos View Post
    Surely those are the aims of the recorders and mixers; the aim of a Hi-Fi system is to reproduce accurately what is recorded.
    Indeed, but how you go about genuinely achieving the latter, and the importance of the role of measurements in the process, is what's debatable.

    My view, based on the results of my experience to date of buying the subsequent products, is that when designing loudspeakers or electronics, the ultimate arbiter for how good the finished product is, MUST a good pair of ears, not the readout on test equipment, because not everything we can genuinely hear, in relation to accurately reproducing musical information (the content of a recording), is measurable.

    Also, in my experience, the best audio designers only use measurements to ensure that their designs meet some basic electrical parameters for sound quality and safety, but the important work is carried out when equipment leaves the test bench and the circuit is fine-tuned by ear, or 'voiced' (as the process is commonly referred to), by the designer in question, using music on a familiar test system, before being declared ready to sell to customers.

    That is ultimately what turns a merely adequate or competent piece of equipment (and especially loudspeakers) into something genuinely excellent, and which is capable of a producing a realistic, LIFELIKE sound - if of course the recording allows!

    Often now, in today's hi-fi industry, equipment and speakers are designed by computer, based on adhering to some notional set of 'ideal measurements' or parameters - and it SOUNDS like it... Or even if a human is involved in the process, very rarely is anything actually LISTENED to, in order to ascertain if it sounds right first, in the context of a known benchmark (i.e. a familiar test system, playing music) before being put into production. Rather if it measures ok, and it's safe, it's 'good enough to go'!

    In my experience, the truly best hi-fi equipment or speakers in existence (based on the criteria I outlined earlier) simply isn't born that way.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  9. #89
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pharos View Post
    "In particular, the Duelunds possessed an uncanny knack of subjectively sounding of 'nothing', other than the signal that they were given, as they exhibited almost no overt inherent sonic signature, and instead simply allowed the music-signal full reign, almost as if I'd managed to hard-wire the circuit without resistors, such was their 'wide-open window' onto the music, therefore making anything else I'd tried up until that point sound markedly more 'contrived', and distinctly like introducing a bottleneck."

    Isn't that a bit of an acknowledgement to objectivity Marco?
    I guess so, but a subjective process was what was used to acknowledge it!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  10. #90
    Join Date: Mar 2017

    Location: Seaford UK

    Posts: 1,861
    I'm Dennis.

    Default

    I think the objectivity hurdles are a prerequisite for equipment, but they do not define everything.

    I do not believe for one moment that either my ATC SCA2 and SPA2, or my friend's Benchmark amps and DAC were not listened to by the manufacturers before release. To my ears all are superb, as well as measuring very well.

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