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Thread: The biggest debate in the history of humankind -Tannoy crossovers original vs new.

  1. #21
    Join Date: Jul 2010

    Location: Cheltenham

    Posts: 982
    I'm Charlie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    e-mail Paul at RFC he'll give you advice on all the options. He'll have some graphs for you too.
    +1 - Paul at RFC is a font of knowledge and a great craftsman - you'd appreciate the quality of his work Denzil
    R2R: Studer A820 1/2 inch 2 track; Otari MTR-12 1/4 inch 2 track; Sony APR 5003; Sony APR 5002; Studer A807/II. Vinyl: Platine Verdier Allaerts MC1B/Schroeder Reference & Model 2 Decca C4E/Hadcock 228 TRON Seven Reference phono. Keith Monks MkII RCM Other analogue source: Nakamichi Dragon with ANT4066 mods. Amplification: TRON Meteor preamp TRON Voyager 20B SET power. Speakers: Avantgarde Duo. Digital: computing at last with Prism Sound Lyra 2 A2D converter

  2. #22
    Join Date: Mar 2016

    Location: Barnet, london UK

    Posts: 2,146
    I'm Adam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pharos View Post
    I had Tannoy 15s in Lancasters from'72 to '84, and rewired the I/P wires to the Xover. I was not that impressed with the quality of the Xover build, most of my own work, MoD trained was rather better However the basic design, choice of component values may well have been good, and others who measure them may know that.

    I am surprised that you have not chosen the later HPD driver.
    can i ask why you say that?
    "lack of passion is fatal"


    Vinyl: Thorens TD-124mk2 / SME-312 Aluminium 'special' / SME M2-9R / STEREO: Etsuro Urushi Cobalt / Shure M3D / Ortofon SPU A95 / Cartridge Man Music Master / Shure - SC35C (US) / SAEC C3 MC MONO: Miyajima Zero B 0.7mil mono / Miyajima Premium 1.0 / Amps & SUTs: Radford STA25 mk3 / AD Audio 'Satchmo2' pre & LCR phono / Hashimoto HM-7 SUT / ETR-MONO SUT Digital: Audio Note 4.1 (with DAC5 upgrades) DAC / Roon / Tidal Speakers: Tannoy 12" MGs' in RFC custom 'Rutland' Cabinets with RFC crossovers / Tannoy ST-100 Super Tweeters Cables: LFD Grainless phono / RFC Mercury / Duelund DCA16GA tinned copper / Kimber 12TC / SW1X Audio Design USB-SPdif / Duelund DCA20GA interconnects / SW1X Audio SPDIF Aero 6 / Mains Power Conditioner / Box Furniture rack / Audiodesk Systeme Vinyl Cleaner / a very beautiful & understanding Wife!

  3. #23
    Join Date: Mar 2017

    Location: Seaford UK

    Posts: 1,861
    I'm Dennis.

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    Yes Adam, Because in '75 with a friend, we compared his HPDs with mine, we swopped one for a month or so.

    We both preferred that which we were used to, but ignoring habituation which is a big factor in listening, I think the HPD was an upgrade move, but not massively so.

    Densil could of course try any which fit, and with such a big investment in the boxes it may be relatively cheap to do so; I would want to know that I had absolutely the best Tannoy driver if I were in his position. What is used in the Westminster?.

  4. #24
    Join Date: May 2020

    Location: Goa, India

    Posts: 143
    I'm Denzil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pharos View Post
    Yes Adam, Because in '75 with a friend, we compared his HPDs with mine, we swopped one for a month or so.

    We both preferred that which we were used to, but ignoring habituation which is a big factor in listening, I think the HPD was an upgrade move, but not massively so.

    Densil could of course try any which fit, and with such a big investment in the boxes it may be relatively cheap to do so; I would want to know that I had absolutely the best Tannoy driver if I were in his position. What is used in the Westminster?.
    Hi Dennis,

    As mentioned earlier, I inherited these speakers so for me the question about swapping the drivers doesn't really apply. It's more of a tribute and of course improving the sound quality with better cabinets and possibly better crossovers.

    Regards,

    Denzil
    https://www.instagram.com/elsewheregoa

  5. #25
    Join Date: May 2020

    Location: Goa, India

    Posts: 143
    I'm Denzil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pharos View Post
    Yes Adam, Because in '75 with a friend, we compared his HPDs with mine, we swopped one for a month or so.

    We both preferred that which we were used to, but ignoring habituation which is a big factor in listening, I think the HPD was an upgrade move, but not massively so.

    Densil could of course try any which fit, and with such a big investment in the boxes it may be relatively cheap to do so; I would want to know that I had absolutely the best Tannoy driver if I were in his position. What is used in the Westminster?.
    Hi Dennis,

    As mentioned earlier, I inherited these speakers so for me the question about swapping the drivers doesn't really apply. It's more of a tribute and of course improving the sound quality with better cabinets and possibly better crossovers.

    Regards,

    Denzil
    https://www.instagram.com/elsewheregoa

  6. #26
    Join Date: Dec 2018

    Location: Maidstone

    Posts: 82
    I'm julian.

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    Hi Denzil,
    Another +1 for Paul at RFC.
    I did quite a lot of digging and listening before buying some 315 HPD drivers and std crossovers, with the intension of building something special.
    Then a pair of RFC modified Cheviots with external RFC crossovers turned up for sale by a friend at a lower price than it would have cost me to build, so i jumped at the chance and i'm glad i did. I was intending to drop them to Paul on the way back from the Hifi Wigwam show in March, for his most recent revision of the crossovers, but due to the ongoing covid problems this has not yet happened, it will.
    I have heard a better iteration of the 315 HPD, that was the RFC Canterbury's...

    Regards,
    Joolz
    PS Audio Directstream DAC, modified Dennon DVD player, SP10, Trans Fi linear tracker, Stack audio streamer
    1980's Aloia 6L6 prototype, Cat's Whiskers Autum Leaves 300 B mono blocks, Definative Audio modded Rogue 88 Magmum 6550. Firebottle LDR battery pre. Classe 103, Herron VT2
    RFC Tannoy Cheviot's,Wilmslow Audio modified Chario Academy Millenium II's,Frankenstein DIY's, Oris Onken horns, Fostek full range drivers
    Ripnas etc

  7. #27
    Join Date: May 2020

    Location: Goa, India

    Posts: 143
    I'm Denzil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joolz View Post
    Hi Denzil,
    Another +1 for Paul at RFC.
    I did quite a lot of digging and listening before buying some 315 HPD drivers and std crossovers, with the intension of building something special.
    Then a pair of RFC modified Cheviots with external RFC crossovers turned up for sale by a friend at a lower price than it would have cost me to build, so i jumped at the chance and i'm glad i did. I was intending to drop them to Paul on the way back from the Hifi Wigwam show in March, for his most recent revision of the crossovers, but due to the ongoing covid problems this has not yet happened, it will.
    I have heard a better iteration of the 315 HPD, that was the RFC Canterbury's...

    Regards,
    Joolz
    Great. Thanks Joolz !

    Regards,

    Denzil
    https://www.instagram.com/elsewheregoa

  8. #28
    Join Date: Dec 2017

    Location: limerick

    Posts: 223
    I'm charles.

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    Hi Denzil,

    Upgrading the XO will make a huge difference. I have a pair of MG15's and 2 friends have Tannoys too. I rebuilt their XO's and they were delighted. To be clear, it was not done to alter XO point or slope but to replace old caps and resistors keeping values the same, and in doing so keep the Tannoy 'sound' but with enhanced detail and transient performance.

    One member posted about capacitor ESR which presumably with modern caps will be a little lower which is a good thing. The vast majority of speakers have a resistor or two in the tweeter circuit, yours have 10 to 30 ohms switchable with probably 5% tolerance so the lower equivalent series resistance of any cap will have zero audible or measurable effect regarding altering the dB level.

    It presents a very worthwhile improvement across the whole range and is money well spent. There is a lot on the net that will attest to this. Comparing graphs does not, unfortunately, tell you very much about how the speaker will sound. For example: assume a properly designed and built XO and plot the response with cheap electrolytic caps, then change the caps for the same value but use expensive film caps and plot the new response. The plots will be identical so they are no indication of how it will sound with music.

    I responded to your post on speaker cables. From the link that I posted try the DCA16GA to bass/mid drivers and 20GA to tweeter. Beautiful sound to match your speakers

  9. #29
    Join Date: May 2020

    Location: Goa, India

    Posts: 143
    I'm Denzil.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sailor View Post
    Hi Denzil,

    Upgrading the XO will make a huge difference. I have a pair of MG15's and 2 friends have Tannoys too. I rebuilt their XO's and they were delighted. To be clear, it was not done to alter XO point or slope but to replace old caps and resistors keeping values the same, and in doing so keep the Tannoy 'sound' but with enhanced detail and transient performance.

    One member posted about capacitor ESR which presumably with modern caps will be a little lower which is a good thing. The vast majority of speakers have a resistor or two in the tweeter circuit, yours have 10 to 30 ohms switchable with probably 5% tolerance so the lower equivalent series resistance of any cap will have zero audible or measurable effect regarding altering the dB level.

    It presents a very worthwhile improvement across the whole range and is money well spent. There is a lot on the net that will attest to this. Comparing graphs does not, unfortunately, tell you very much about how the speaker will sound. For example: assume a properly designed and built XO and plot the response with cheap electrolytic caps, then change the caps for the same value but use expensive film caps and plot the new response. The plots will be identical so they are no indication of how it will sound with music.

    I responded to your post on speaker cables. From the link that I posted try the DCA16GA to bass/mid drivers and 20GA to tweeter. Beautiful sound to match your speakers
    Thank you Charles for your response with such great detail, greatly appreciated !

    I do have the original crossovers and will at some point certainly start to refurbish them with new caps etc. However I'm trying to establish something which is the purposes of the discussion on this thread. In your opinion, would it be better to refurbish the old crossovers or would it be better to buy new crossovers form a reputed person. I've heard that the switches on the old crossovers are not great and some say they work well after cleaning, others say they are just not good and should be replaced because the contact area is too small and too weak. Still others say there are some other issues with the old crossovers. So given the option, refurbis or change with very good quality new crossovers ?

    Thanks and regards,

    Denzil
    https://www.instagram.com/elsewheregoa

  10. #30
    Join Date: May 2020

    Location: Goa, India

    Posts: 143
    I'm Denzil.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by joolz View Post
    Hi Denzil,
    Another +1 for Paul at RFC.
    I did quite a lot of digging and listening before buying some 315 HPD drivers and std crossovers, with the intension of building something special.
    Then a pair of RFC modified Cheviots with external RFC crossovers turned up for sale by a friend at a lower price than it would have cost me to build, so i jumped at the chance and i'm glad i did. I was intending to drop them to Paul on the way back from the Hifi Wigwam show in March, for his most recent revision of the crossovers, but due to the ongoing covid problems this has not yet happened, it will.
    I have heard a better iteration of the 315 HPD, that was the RFC Canterbury's...

    Regards,
    Joolz
    Do Paul's crossovers have energy and slope bridges or switches ?

    Regards,

    Denzil
    https://www.instagram.com/elsewheregoa

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