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Thread: The biggest debate in the history of humankind -Tannoy crossovers original vs new.

  1. #41
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

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    I'm Martin.

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    Article here about changing standard capacitors in the crossover for fancy expensive ones, with measurements. Upshot is - it makes no difference at all (providing the existing caps were working to spec) https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...audible.12287/
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  2. #42
    Join Date: Apr 2011

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    I'm matt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Article here about changing standard capacitors in the crossover for fancy expensive ones, with measurements. Upshot is - it makes no difference at all (providing the existing caps were working to spec) https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...audible.12287/

    Well I can't prove it obviously, but my ears tell me that Ansar Supersound, Jantzen Z-superior, Audyn True Copper Max and Mundorf Supreme all sound different. What's going to surprise most people is that I'd rate the Jantzen Z-superior last out of that lot.

  3. #43
    Join Date: Aug 2009

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    Quote Originally Posted by fatmarley View Post
    Well I can't prove it obviously, but my ears tell me that Ansar Supersound, Jantzen Z-superior, Audyn True Copper Max and Mundorf Supreme all sound different. What's going to surprise most people is that I'd rate the Jantzen Z-superior last out of that lot.
    I know, I've also heard differences too, but thought I'd include something from the measurement perspective, it's all valuable information.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  4. #44
    Join Date: Apr 2011

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    I'm matt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    I know, I've also heard differences too, but thought I'd include something from the measurement perspective, it's all valuable information.
    Oh, I see. Yes it's interesting that they all measure the same (On-Axis frequency response at least...)

  5. #45
    Join Date: Aug 2009

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    I'm happy to accept that 90% of all perceived differences are differences in frequency response. It's no mystery. It's the other 10 percent that is interesting.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  6. #46
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Article here about changing standard capacitors in the crossover for fancy expensive ones, with measurements. Upshot is - it makes no difference at all (providing the existing caps were working to spec) https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...audible.12287/
    Yes, and which is bollox, because as you know I've 'been there and done that' with both my Tannoys and Celestions - and the notion that it makes no difference [given what was heard when comparisons were made] is simply laughable!!

    So..... Yet another valid example of 'measurements don't always tell the full story', so ultimately trust your ears!

    I'll comment on this thread properly later, as this just happened to pop up. Lovely Tannoys, Denzil! Chat later

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  7. #47
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

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    I'm Martin.

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    Did you determine of the old ones were out of spec though? If they were then a difference is unsurprising.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  8. #48
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    The whole of this post mirrors my (extensive) experience in this area, particularly the bits in bold:

    Quote Originally Posted by sailor View Post
    Upgrading the XO will make a huge difference. I have a pair of MG15's and 2 friends have Tannoys too. I rebuilt their XO's and they were delighted. To be clear, it was not done to alter XO point or slope but to replace old caps and resistors keeping values the same, and in doing so keep the Tannoy 'sound' but with enhanced detail and transient performance.

    One member posted about capacitor ESR which presumably with modern caps will be a little lower which is a good thing. The vast majority of speakers have a resistor or two in the tweeter circuit, yours have 10 to 30 ohms switchable with probably 5% tolerance so the lower equivalent series resistance of any cap will have zero audible or measurable effect regarding altering the dB level.

    It presents a very worthwhile improvement across the whole range and is money well spent. There is a lot on the net that will attest to this. Comparing graphs does not, unfortunately, tell you very much about how the speaker will sound. For example: assume a properly designed and built XO and plot the response with cheap electrolytic caps, then change the caps for the same value but use expensive film caps and plot the new response. The plots will be identical so they are no indication of how it will sound with music.
    Spot ON, Charles!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  9. #49
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Did you determine of the old ones were out of spec though? If they were then a difference is unsurprising.
    They may well have been out of spec, as 50+ year old electrolytic capacitors almost certainly will be (that's actually the MAIN reason for rebuilding the original crossovers in the first place), and why simply replacing the old caps with *any modern half-decent polypropylene cap* of the same electrical value as the original, will almost certainly result in a notable sonic improvement. That was the first thing I did.

    However, that doesn't explain the (very easily heard) results, i.e. BIG sonic improvements I subsequently obtained when upgrading the above for Clarity Cap SRs (and other high-quality cap types in critical parts of the crossover circuit), including upgrading the resistors to Duelands, etc, whilst retaining the correct electrical values for the circuit I'd chosen to use. Ditto when I did the same with my Celestion 15XRs, upgrading the original 40+ year old caps with Jantzen Silver Z-caps, of the same electrical value.

    Trust me, I know what I'm listening for with these things (I'm extremely critical), and there were NO sonic or musicality downsides to upgrading any of those components, for far superior modern equivalents. It's one area where technology has produced some genuine sonic advancements!

    Now, if you were to talk about inductors, that's a slightly more grey area, and some of the older varieties can actually be very good! Plus, many will (as mentioned) have been designed to match the drive units, not only electrically, but sonically, so in that area one must tread a little more carefully.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  10. #50
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Default

    Here are pics of the crossovers used in my 15" MGs:





    Clarity Cap capacitors and Duelund CAST graphite resistors used throughout, along with air-core copper foil-coil inductors, all point-to-point wired with VDH CS-14 Hybrid internal speaker cable.

    Anyone who's heard my Tannoys (in Lockwood Major cabs) knows how fabulous they sound, and in no small part due to the improved crossovers!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


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