The biggest debate in the history of humankind -Tannoy crossovers original vs new.

[fatmarley]

We (using nothing but our ears) successfully created a bloody amazing sound, without the use of ONE IOTA of measurements during that process - *that* is my point!

And there's a good chance they could be even better with the same quality of components, but with measurements. That 'two steps forward, one step back' thing I mentioned earlier.

[Marco]

And there's a good chance they could be even better with the same quality of components, but with measurements. That 'two steps forward, one step back' thing I mentioned earlier.

Yes it's certainly possible, and I wouldn't have been averse to it either. However, it doesn't negate the fact (as demonstrated) that it's not mandatory to make measurements to get a fantastic sound, such as anyone who's heard my speakers would attest to.

Marco.

[Macca]

Yes, but the point is, the COMBINATION of what i'm using now (based on all of the above), in order to produce the sound I'm hearing, hasn't been measured!

By your logic, when alterations were being made to the crossover circuit, during the fine-tuning process outlined, measurements would have been mandatory, in order for it to have worked, but clearly they weren't..
o.

No that's not my position. My position is that you have to start from a measurement persepective to at least get in the ballpark, then you can fine tune 'by ear'. Which I'm pretty sure is what you are saying too. You can't just pull inductors and capacitors at random out of a bag and use that as a starting point.

[struth]

No that's not my position. My position is that you have to start from a measurement persepective to at least get in the ballpark, then you can fine tune 'by ear'. Which I'm pretty sure is what you are saying too. You can't just pull indictors and capacitors at random out of a bag and use that as a starting point.

i'd agree

[Marco]

No that's not my position.

I wasn't talking about your 'position' though; I was talking about the point *I* was making, which you were missing

My position is that you have to start from a measurement persepective to at least get in the ballpark, then you can fine tune 'by ear'. Which I'm pretty sure is what you are saying too. You can't just pull indictors and capacitors at random out of a bag and use that as a starting point.

Yes indeed, if you're starting from scratch.

However, in the circumstances I described, and simply fine-tuning/voicing an existing crossover circuit, measurements aren't mandatory. And going back to the POINT I was making before, based on the results I achieved with that fine-tuning/voicing, you don't always need to make measurements, in order to create a great sound. *THAT* is my point

However, as Matt says, they can help improve matters, and often do!

Marco.

[Macca]

I wasn't talking about your 'position' though; I was talking about the point *I* was making, which you were missing



Yes indeed, if you're starting from scratch.

However, in the circumstances I described, simply fine-tuning an existing crossover circuit, measurements aren't mandatory. And going back to the POINT I was making before, based on the results I achieved with that fine-tuning/'voicing', you don't always need to make measurements to create a great sound. *THAT* is my point

Completely agree, never said otherwise. I was talking about designing the speaker from scratch just by listening to music, as NEAT claim they do. Not tweaking an already existing crossover design in speakers already designed (at least mostly) by measurements. Although I agree with Matt that measuring can help with that too. But it isn't essential as the thing will be mostly right already.

[Marco]

Yes, we're on the same page

I repeat though, for absolute clarity, that the *main point* I was making was to dispel the myth, created by staunch objectivists, that making love to your test equipment is a mandatory procedure before you can achieve any genuine improvement, when applying some change/tweak to the circuit of either electronics or loudspeakers.

Quite simply, that's closed-minded, arrogant bollox, and patently untrue. GOOD EARS are just as important. And what pisses me off, is the former view [often portrayed by so-called 'experts'] discourages people with perfectly good ones from USING them!

Marco.

[Macca]

Yes, we're on the same page

I repeat though, for absolute clarity, that the *main point* I was making was to dispel the myth, created by staunch objectivists, that making love to your test equipment is a mandatory procedure before you can achieve any genuine improvement, when applying some change/tweak to the circuit of either electronics or loudspeakers.

Quite simply, that's closed-minded, arrogant bollox, and patently untrue. GOOD EARS are just as important. And what pisses me off, is the former view [often portrayed by so-called 'experts'] discourages people with perfectly good ones from USING them!

Marco.

Well I don't think anyone who was actually an expert - or at least experienced with - speaker design would ever claim that. But you get extremists in all areas and they are usually the people who know the least about whatever it is.

But anyone who claims something like 'These loudspeakers are widely considered to offer the very best in High-End audio reproduction, regardless of size or price.' is a bullshitter and to be avoided.

[Marco]

Missed this earlier...

Just as an aside - I (for one) am not saying it cannot be heard. I would like to see you, or anyone else, be able to identify whether it is the cheap or expensive resistors in place without knowing beforehand which type were in circuit. Note I am not saying that you couldn't do it, just that I would like to see it demonstrated. I very much doubt that I could do it, but maybe I would be surprised.

Well, we know each other pretty well, and have been together many times when listening to stuff, and comparisons have been made between equipment, both at homes and shows. Trust me, given the nature of the improvement I'm talking about (I can't speak for Charles, as I don't know him or his speakers), I can confidently predict you'd hear it with a pair of your favourite Y-fronts wrapped around your peepers, and two turnips stuck in your ears!

Remember the significant improvements I made to the set up of your turntable that time I was down? Well, think along those lines x 5... That's about the difference I heard between the original Tannoy crossovers and the ones I'm using now.

And remember I'm not exactly new to modifying or upgrading equipment. I've heard the same level of improvement when modifying the Croft, my Copper amp (which Anthony also heard, with mods he'd approved, PSU caps, etc), and also to my Sony CDP and DAC, when it came back from Audiocom, and where mainly what had been changed was caps and resistors, just like in a loudspeaker crossover.

In that respect, I can assure you, beyond any doubt, that there was NO COMPARISON, in the level of sound quality/sonic performance, between ANY of the above items, pre and post modification. The Croft, in particular, simply by upgrading the coupling capacitors and moving from a carbon-pot volume control, to a high-quality stepped attenuator, was literally 'night and day' - and I don't use that term lightly!

So muchacho, sighted or not, I'm very confident you'd have heard the difference upgrading the crossovers made to the subsequent sound that was heard - 'expectation bias' it wasn't!

Marco.

[Marco]

Well I don't think anyone who was actually an expert - or at least experienced with - speaker design would ever claim that.

Come on, there are plenty of such folk all over the forums, and who claim to be such experts! Jez Arkless, Serge, PC, among many others I could mention!

They're all (fatally) married to their measurement apparatus, the former so much so that he even features it, rather lovingly, as the picture on his avatar!

But anyone who claims something like 'These loudspeakers are widely considered to offer the very best in High-End audio reproduction, regardless of size or price.' is a bullshitter and to be avoided.

Still wouldn't stop me from listening to them though, out of curiosity if nothing else! That's another key difference between you and me: I don't dismiss stuff out of hand simply because it doesn't suit my sensibilities...

Maco.