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Thread: The biggest debate in the history of humankind -Tannoy crossovers original vs new.

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pharos View Post
    "Who knows? Neither of us were there, but you might be surprised."

    I'd put a lot of money on them having listened extensively, and with trained ears.
    NEAT speakers are supposedly designed partly/mostly 'by ear'. Unfortunately to my ears they sound awful. I guess in the 'by ear' context much depends on whether your ears work the same way as the designers' ears.

  2. #102
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    If that is true Joe, to me it's ridiculous; the ear can be quite easily deceived.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pharos View Post
    If that is true Joe, to me it's ridiculous; the ear can be quite easily deceived.
    It's what Neat say themselves:

    http://neatacoustics.com/overview/

    'Neat’s unusual take on the art of loudspeaker design involves the process of listening to many different types of music and allowing the music to govern the tuning and voicing of the loudspeaker – to the exclusion of almost all other criteria. In a world where most hifi equipment is designed to conform to a set of widely accepted parameters, Neat’s approach is very refreshing.'

  4. #104
    Join Date: May 2020

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    So !!!

    This thread has gone all over the place and covered various topics (which is wonderful). But let me get back to where we started in the first place. Refurbished original Tannoy crossovers vs new crossovers.

    From what I've gathered here. Most seem to think it's best to ether get new crossovers from a reputed source or recap the old ones and bypass the switches. That's interesting because it's not what I've seen with others on other forums who are also passionate about Tannoy's and think it's best to use the original crossovers and at most clean the switches or if absolutely necessary, recap the originals.

    However, without much knowledge and experience and also due to the fact that I live in a back of beyond location (fortunately), where it's extremely difficult to have access to components (unfortunately), I took what I thought was a simple way out and got these crossovers.

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/152776541889



    With the original crossovers, there was a fair amount of distortion and musshyness/fuzzyness at mid-highs and highs. And there was a dramatic improvement across the whole spectrum with the new crossovers. The problem with the mid highs and highs went away and the overall sound quality improved. How they would compare with the originals, if the originals were cleaned and recapped I have no idea and I'm not sure when I will be able to work on the original crossovers.

    These crossovers have three settings for "energy" but they unfortunately don't have any "slope" control which I miss. My speakers sound wonderful but I do believe that the energy and slope settings on the original Tannoy's helps making minor adjustments to suit room acustics.

    I would appreciate all your feedback on the crossovers I'm using. And would it be possible or necessary to change any components to improve them in any way ?

    Looking forward to hearing from you all !

    Regards,

    Denzil
    Last edited by Denzil; 05-06-2020 at 11:39.
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  5. #105
    Join Date: Apr 2011

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    Quote Originally Posted by Denzil View Post
    So !!!

    This thread has gone all over the place and covered various topics (which is wonderful). But let me get back to where we started in the first place. Refurbished original Tannoy crossovers vs new crossovers.

    From what I've gathered here. Most seem to think it's best to ether get new crossovers from a reputed source or recap the old ones and bypass the switches. That's interesting because it's not what I've seen with others on other forums who are also passionate about Tannoy's and think it's best to use the original crossovers and at most clean the switches or if absolutely necessary, recap the originals.

    However, without much knowledge and experience and also due to the fact that I live in a back of beyond location (fortunately), where it's extremely difficult to have access to components (unfortunately), I took what I thought was a simple way out and got these crossovers.

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/152776541889



    With the original crossovers, there was a fair amount of distortion and musshyness/fuzzyness at mid-highs and highs. And there was a dramatic improvement across the whole spectrum with the new crossovers. The problem with the mid highs and highs went away and the overall sound quality improved. How they would compare with the originals, if the originals were cleaned and recapped I have no idea and I'm not sure when I will be able to work on the original crossovers.

    These crossovers have three settings for "energy" but they unfortunately don't have any "slope" control which I miss. My speakers sound wonderful but I do believe that the energy and slope settings on the original Tannoy's helps making minor adjustments to suit room acustics.

    I would appreciate all your feedback on the crossovers I'm using. And would it be possible or necessary to change any components to improve them in any way ?

    Looking forward to hearing from you all !

    Regards,

    Denzil
    If you compare the capacitor values of your new crossover to the published circuit diagrams online, you will see that your new crossover uses different values. I don't know why this is exactly, but I do know that when replacing electrolytics with film, you would need to change the circuit (or add some resistance) to allow for the lower ESR (assuming you want to keep the same frequency response).

    If you want to compare your new crossovers to refurbished originals, I'd just replace the 16uf electrolytics with something like the Alcap bipolar and clean the switches. Looking over at Troels Gravesen, it looks like all the other caps are film and won't degrade (but it may well be possible to upgrade them).

    If I were going to have a go at upgrading the crossovers myself, I'd take measurements first, reverse engineer the original crossover, and then design one without the electrolytic cap or switches. By just upgrading the components and keeping the same values, you may well be taking two steps forward - but also possibly, one step back (it's impossible to know without measuring first).

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pharos View Post
    If that is true Joe, to me it's ridiculous; the ear can be quite easily deceived.
    ...and test equipment in some ways is just as fallible (if you can't measure all of what needs measured), as outlined in my previous post.

    Furthermore, you appear to hope that your ATCs were listened to "by trained ears", as well as measured. Therefore, which is it more important to you: having speakers made by "ears that can quite easily be deceived", 'trained' or otherwise, or measurements that don't tell the full story?

    Unfortunately, there's no 'free lunch'!

    Marco.
    "Count your age by friends, not years. Count your life by smiles, not tears” - John Lennon.

    "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace" - Jimi Hendrix.

    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe View Post
    NEAT speakers are supposedly designed partly/mostly 'by ear'. Unfortunately to my ears they sound awful. I guess in the 'by ear' context much depends on whether your ears work the same way as the designers' ears.
    And that was in the context of which system (and room) that caused you to conclude conclusively that the fault lay entirely with the speakers?

    The point is, when you're buying equipment from a small, 'specialist' manufacturer (no matter who - often a one-man band), you're buying into their design ethos and how their equipment has *ultimately* (the key word) been 'voiced' by them, as well as of course it being measured by test equipment, in order to be safe and conform to certain basic established electrical parameters.

    However, at the end of the day, unless the designer in question is an outright objectivist, who doesn't believe in relying on anything else other than readouts on measurement equipment, to create his or her designs, then you're effectively always going to be listening to the 'house sound' of the kit in question, largely arrived at through final voicing by ear - the 'ear' of the person who built it!

    It's similar to a chef, who's running a small restaurant, catering for a specific clientele: you either like the style (and taste) of his cuisine or you don't - and if you don't, you steer clear of his restaurant...

    Creating a highly accomplished dish of food involves successfully following a recipe with many different high-quality ingredients - each imparting its own unique flavour on proceedings - and the principle around building audio equipment, or loudspeakers, which can faithfully reproduce recorded music, is largely the same.

    Marco.
    "Count your age by friends, not years. Count your life by smiles, not tears” - John Lennon.

    "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace" - Jimi Hendrix.

    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

  8. #108
    Join Date: May 2009

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    And that was in the context of which system (and room) that caused you to conclude conclusively that the fault lay entirely with the speakers?.
    Well, it was at a dealers, using my own source and amp. I had intended to listen to a few pairs, then borrow the pair I liked best for a home demonstration. Sadly, none of the four pairs I heard grabbed me in any way. From memory these were from B&W, Kef and Kudos as well as the Neats, but the Neats were easily the worst. Then at the Bristol hifi show a year or so later I heard the Spendor D7s I currently use, and they ticked all the boxes.

  9. #109
    Join Date: Aug 2009

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe View Post
    Well, it was at a dealers, using my own source and amp. I had intended to listen to a few pairs, then borrow the pair I liked best for a home demonstration. Sadly, none of the four pairs I heard grabbed me in any way. From memory these were from B&W, Kef and Kudos as well as the Neats, but the Neats were easily the worst. Then at the Bristol hifi show a year or so later I heard the Spendor D7s I currently use, and they ticked all the boxes.
    Well your hearing must be faulty because NEAT also say 'These loudspeakers are widely considered to offer the very best in High-End audio reproduction, regardless of size or price.'

    Personally I wouldn't touch a loudspeaker designed solely by listening, a total recipe for disaster if ever there was one. Just that one sentence in their marketing would stop me even bothering to listen to them, it's an outrageous claim.

    But it's a USP in a crowded market I suppose.
    Current Lash Up:

    *Oppo BDT-101CI* Nelson Pass DCB1 / Krell KSA100 mkII * JM Lab Electra 926 *


    'You fool! To think that your ape-brain could contain the full knowledge of the Krell!'

  10. #110
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    Still, it's good to know that a chef can design speakers. I wonder if speaker designers are good chefs? Somehow I visualise them eating baked beans cold from the tin.

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