The biggest debate in the history of humankind -Tannoy crossovers original vs new.

[Marco]

Life is brief; too brief to listen to everything, certainly. And who defines what has 'credibility'?

YOU - based on YOUR own judgement criteria. Ultimately, I care not a jot about anything else! I don't need an 'expert' to tell me what's 'credible'. Btw, by "everything" I meant, anything you consider is worth spending the time listening to.

I've been to a few hifi shows in recent years, having previously avoided them, and many of the systems there I've found unlistenable for more than a few minutes. That's proved quite useful as a means of crossing items off an otherwise unmanageable long-list: if the manufacturer/distributor can't make them sound halfway decent in the admittedly challenging context of a hifi show, I'm not inclined to waste any time giving them a second chance. By contrast, equipment that sounds good in such a context may well be worth a second listen or home demonstration.

Yes I can see the logic in that, and have often done the same myself. Btw, it's my view (based on experience of demonstrating systems at shows on numerous occasions) that there is no excuse whatsoever for producing a really shite sound at a hi-fi show, no matter how bad the room is or polluted the mains!

Quite simply that's down to sheer laziness, in terms of not spending enough time setting up the system properly [usually too keen to get to the bar], bringing room treatments or mains conditioners along if necessary, etc, or in choosing the wrong speakers for the room you've been allocated. Given that NOT being the case, and if the gear or speakers are any good in the first place, then you should be able to make a half-decent (if far from perfect) noise!

Marco.

[Marco]

Just don't assume that an alternative crossover is necessarily an upgrade. Remember, Tannoy spent thirty or so years on crossover development with the alnico magnet models from Red and Gold to HPD, they are likely to have got the design well enough sorted.

That's not to say that a good control clean and capacitor replacement would do any harm though.

Also, hang onto the original crossovers. The drivers are likely to be worth significantly more if these are present.

All good advice, Geoff. I'm sure that the main reason for the poor quality of sound I heard, not only from my original crossovers, but others I've heard belonging to various Tannoy DC users, in comparison with well-sorted modern ones, is due to 50+ year old caps being long since out of spec.

However, I do think that a little reworking of the original crossovers also benefits, as in some areas things have moved on, and so if properly implemented, even the best vintage speakers or equipment can usually be improved either by new thinking/approaches to design, or with the best modern components.

That's precisely why my system has been built around successfully marrying the best of OLD and NEW technology! IME, it's a good approach to getting a great sound, without spending 'silly money'

Marco.

[Pharos]

Tannoy didn't design the drivers without measuring them and Lockwood didn't design the cabinets without measuring them. Although you may have tweaked the crossovers, the basic crossover you have used is, as you say, an established design. It will not have been designed without measuring the results with it in place.

I agree that a speaker design must be measured and listened to in order to optimise it. I never said otherwise. NEAT claim they design solely by listening, I stick by my assertion that this is a silly thing to do and will lead to dissatisfaction in the long run.

It's for this sort of 'All you need to do is listen' reason that people blame recording quality when some recordings sound like crap on their systems and they end up with the system dictating what music they can enjoy. And if they have spent a lot of money badly then you get the absurd claim that 'The better the system is, the more recordings become unlistenable.'

I've designed loudspeakers, I have practical experience of trying to do it solely by ear. It's a mistake.

I agree with your assertion here about the ineptitude of designing completely by ear, and the potential results can often be as you describe. A weird response can result in only a few recordings sounding good, and the designer then because of his investment in time and effort, believing that his speakers are so good that he is the only one hearing how poor so many recordings are.

I have done this and ended up with an odd response, and this with time I have habituated to, and thus my hearing become adapted and 'corrupted'.

From Marco;

"You've also heard my speakers, and rightly raved about them, so how does that square with your idea that you can't create a great sounding pair of speakers without using measurements?"

Potentially for the reasons above.

[Pharos]

Yes, but the point is, the COMBINATION of what i'm using now (based on all of the above), in order to produce the sound I'm hearing, hasn't been measured!

By your logic, when alterations were being made to the crossover circuit, during the fine-tuning process outlined, measurements would have been mandatory, in order for it to have worked, but clearly they weren't... We (using nothing but our ears) successfully created a bloody amazing sound, without the use of ONE IOTA of measurements during that process - *that* is my point!

Furthermore, and notably, the circuit itself accordingly was subtly altered (when said adjustments were made), from that taken from the *established one* on the website, and the results of that weren't measured either, simply listened to.

Marco.

And that methodology is what can lead to becoming embroiled in the "circle of confusion".

You also say:

"Sure, Dennis, but you're missing the point. I meant simply in terms of both the design of loudspeakers or electronics following a 'recipe', using various 'ingredients'. Capacitors, resistors, inductors, diodes, transistors, etc, are essentially 'ingredients' of a recipe to make loudspeaker crossovers or amplifiers, just as much as, say, the ingredients that make up a cake."

Many constructions in life are made from components.

[DiveDeepDog]

I’d always keep originals, and have cleaned the switches, just curiosity and the audio nervosa disease:-)
Over at the pink place opinion is very much to keep original.
RFC has good rep, however at a cost.

The Lockwood’s currently on eBay have interesting crossover...

[Macca]

I remember listening to some £14K speakers at a show, playing some plinky plonk of course and it sounded okay, good even. A visitor asked for a particular tune, some sort of AOR track, nothing especially challenging, and it sounded terrible. They quickly reverted back to the plinky-plonk. The excuse was 'Oh yes you really need the subwoofer for that sort of thing.' The subwoofer was an additional eight grand.

[walpurgis]

The Lockwood’s currently on eBay have interesting crossover...

I have bought from them in the past. I had the last pair of SRM 10B cones they offered. Very handy!

[struth]

I remember listening to some £14K speakers at a show, playing some plinky plonk of course and it sounded okay, good even. A visitor asked for a particular tune, some sort of AOR track, nothing especially challenging, and it sounded terrible. They quickly reverted back to the plinky-plonk. The excuse was 'Oh yes you really need the subwoofer for that sort of thing.' The subwoofer was an additional eight grand.

so they were shoite then

[Pharos]

Sure, Dennis, but you're missing the point. I meant simply in terms of both the design of loudspeakers or electronics following a 'recipe', using various 'ingredients'. Capacitors, resistors, inductors, diodes, transistors, etc, are essentially 'ingredients' of a recipe to make loudspeaker crossovers or amplifiers, just as much as, say, the ingredients that make up a cake.

And all impart their own unique flavour, or in the case of electrical components, produced by different manufacturers, 'sonic signature' on the circuit in question, and which rather importantly, considering what we're discussing, can't be measured.

Therefore, for that *very* reason you need EARS (good ones) to successfully 'marry' those ingredients (along with the various sonic signatures), in order to allow the speakers or electronics in question to produce a lifelike and realistic sound [one that can do proper justice to recorded music], which experience tells me measurements ALONE can't.



Ok that's fine, but how do you square these two earlier comments:



And:



So... If the ear can be quite easily deceived (which to an extent I agree with), then what value is there in employing "trained" ones to voice your loudspeakers, which you clearly hope ATC have done? "Trained" or otherwise, they still have the propensity for being deceived.

Therefore, just use measurements alone and be done with it, surely?

Marco.

I see no contradiction in the two comments you refer to above.

The ear can be deceived, and the purpose of training to try to eliminate or at least reduce that possibility.

I have never said that design of speakers can be undertaken without listening to the result, but I would rather take a pair on trust which were designed by accomplished designers purely on numbers, than a pair designed entirely with the ear.

[Marco]

I agree with your assertion here about the ineptitude of designing completely by ear, and the potential results can often be as you describe. A weird response can result in only a few recordings sounding good, and the designer then because of his investment in time and effort, believing that his speakers are so good that he is the only one hearing how poor so many recordings are.

I have done this and ended up with an odd response, and this with time I have habituated to, and thus my hearing become adapted and 'corrupted'.

From Marco;

"You've also heard my speakers, and rightly raved about them, so how does that square with your idea that you can't create a great sounding pair of speakers without using measurements?"

Potentially for the reasons above.

Sure, but that's fundamentally NOT what's happened in my case, and I think Martin would tell you that, too. I've only ever had good results with anything I've 'voiced' myself or had professionally modified or upgraded by others.

One thing that helps in that area is having confidence in the efficacy of your senses, when making judgements, and not believing that 'experts' will *always* know better!

Marco.