Clone or Knock off??

[WESTLOWER]

I think that this whole aspect of hi fi electronics is a can of worms. It's just like copyright in many ways, except some people choose to turn a blind eye.

Ultimately if the cohort of excellent small designers have their business undercut and their products ripped off without their consent, the hi-fi world would be a much poorer place.

couldn't agree more with you Charlie.
I still do not understand the stance, it's ok to rip off the working electronic design, case aesthetics etc. just as long as you are not trying to deceive!!! and you list it as a clone!

Just a Bonkers cop out.

[Gerry]

It is Intellectual Property (IP) unless the original owner releases it. There are time limits.
Nelson Pass is very kind in this respect.
Lesley Hood published designs in Practical Electronics.

Most people would be pretty pissed of if their designs/words/ songs were ripped off.

The EU ( of we are just about still with) has some pretty draconian legalisation in place courtesy of the big fashion houses.

A copy is a copy is a copy. Plagiarism. Just because you changed the odd word in an essay or song, or note in a tune doesn't excuse it, does it?





Sent from my moto g(8) plus using Tapatalk

[WESTLOWER]

It is Intellectual Property (IP) unless the original owner releases it. There are time limits.
Nelson Pass is very kind in this respect.
Lesley Hood published designs in Practical Electronics.

Most people would be pretty pissed of if their designs/words/ songs were ripped off.

The EU ( of we are just about still with) has some pretty draconian legalisation in place courtesy of the big fashion houses.

A copy is a copy is a copy. Plagiarism. Just because you changed the odd word in an essay or song, or note in a tune doesn't excuse it, does it?





Sent from my moto g(8) plus using Tapatalk

+1 with bells on !

[Wakefield Turntables]

Interesting discussion with lots of twists and turns.

[Columbo]

Do people think it's something unique to hi-fi? Years ago there was an item on the TV about counterfeit goods and it was said that if an item can be copied - it will be. It was said that counterfeit goods was flooding in. The Trading Standards could barely scratch the surface because of the scale, and the lack of resources. Fake drugs were even finding their way into the NHS's system.

You probably see it every day - clothing. (For some reason) people want designer labels. If they have the money - they buy them. If not - they buy a cheaper copy. Or they could buy what they think is the genuine article when it's not.

It can even be in the music you listen to.

[WESTLOWER]

Err... Yes we are all very aware that the practice exists where ever there are sellable high value goods. This thread is referring to the ‘clone or ‘knock off’ of high end hifi.

I don’t think anyone is Stupid enough to assume it only happened in the hifi industry.

There just seem to be enthusiasts in our community that think the practice is ok!!
Ok to steal designs from small companies, just so long as the premise isn’t to deceive.

The exception being the open source designs that some designers kindly allow the diy builders access to.

[Columbo]

My point was simply - where do you draw the line?

People are what they are, and the world is an imperfect place. Do you think Ivor T lost any sleep at night making his copy of the Thorens 150? How many have bought it and denied Thorens in the process?

If you were to ask Nelson Pass, John Curl, Joe Curccio for their opinion, how do you think they might respond? I think they would probably take a pragmatic view.

You say "High-End Knock-offs". Why the distinction, other than the value. A knock-off's a knock-off, surely? As I said previously the practice has been going on for decades. Ken Ishiwata used to make Marantz 7 preamp "Knock-offs" when he was at college. Did that make him a thief? Denying Saul Marantz income? I suppose the question of scale has a bearing. I wonder if Dan D'Agostino feels cheated with all those Krell diy copiests (and Chinese cloners)? No idea. Not a mind reader. But I can imagine him not giving it any thought. It's a 40-year-old design and I imagine he'll have other matters that take up his time.

Personally, it's not something I would buy myself, as I simply don't have any time for "High-End" hi-fi. "Knock-Offs" - or otherwise. If, somehow, I had such an item, and was selling it, I'd make it clear as to what it actually was, and that would be it. You know what they say: "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."

To answer your question "when is a 'Clone' build amp a complete 'Knock-Off'? You missed the question mark. IF, it was a clone in the truest sense, it would be indistinguishable from the original, and as such, it wouldn't be a knock-off, since a knock-off generally implies a cheap imitation. So, it would then follow that something other than a clone could be described as a "Knock-Off". That other could include not actually having the same circuit. The use of inferior components. Poorly finished and assembled.

What about those that take a product and actually improve it and sell it. Is that a 'Knock-Off'?

What about those manufacturers that take another manufacturers product and do little more than rebadge it as their own? Is that a "Knock-Off'?

[Pharos]

Plagiarism and copying have been going on forever; look at the pioneering work done by Campagnolo, and those who later copied but avoided breaching patents or copyrights.

[spendorman]

I remember about 60 years ago, my Grandmother coming back from a holiday abroad, showing me the wonderful Parker pen that she had bought cheaply whilst away.

The name on the pen was not Parker, it was P.arker

[struth]

Aldi do it all the time... products and adverts etc..