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Thread: Clone or Knock off??

  1. #1
    Join Date: Mar 2016

    Location: Barnet, london UK

    Posts: 2,146
    I'm Adam.

    Default Clone or Knock off??

    When is a 'Clone' build amplifier a complete 'Knock off'?

    It's interesting that identical clone products, copying the case work, design, electronics, badge and general look
    are posted as clones for sale. When in fact they are cheaper Chinese made copies!

    I had thought that a clone amp was something thats fundamentally a large nod to the electronic design but significantly changed
    in it's appearance etc.

    so the question is.... When is 'Clone' build amp a complete 'Knock off'
    "lack of passion is fatal"


    Vinyl: Thorens TD-124mk2 / SME-312 Aluminium 'special' / SME M2-9R / STEREO: Etsuro Urushi Cobalt / Shure M3D / Ortofon SPU A95 / Cartridge Man Music Master / Shure - SC35C (US) / SAEC C3 MC MONO: Miyajima Zero B 0.7mil mono / Miyajima Premium 1.0 / Amps & SUTs: Radford STA25 mk3 / AD Audio 'Satchmo2' pre & LCR phono / Hashimoto HM-7 SUT / ETR-MONO SUT Digital: Audio Note 4.1 (with DAC5 upgrades) DAC / Roon / Tidal Speakers: Tannoy 12" MGs' in RFC custom 'Rutland' Cabinets with RFC crossovers / Tannoy ST-100 Super Tweeters Cables: LFD Grainless phono / RFC Mercury / Duelund DCA16GA tinned copper / Kimber 12TC / SW1X Audio Design USB-SPdif / Duelund DCA20GA interconnects / SW1X Audio SPDIF Aero 6 / Mains Power Conditioner / Box Furniture rack / Audiodesk Systeme Vinyl Cleaner / a very beautiful & understanding Wife!

  2. #2
    Join Date: Nov 2010

    Location: Yorkshire

    Posts: 9,302
    I'm Andrew.

    Default

    My definition of "clone" would agree with your own definition. I have the very popular EAR 834p "cloned" and intrinsically it's nothing like an original EAR 834, lots of mods and goodies from 3rd party providers. Clone from a science point of view is exactly that, a carbon copy of something. I hate semantics! I think a "knock-off" is something that is a poor copy of the original designed to look or emulate something much more expensive, a good example being a Rolex watch man from the looky-looky man! It's a good question,, get ready from some complex replies!
    SS
    CD Teac VRDS25X(Audiotuned) DECK 1210 Mat Crystal Audio Mods MN Base/Bearing/Platter+Ebony armboard Feet Isonoe PSU Paul Hynes SR7EHD-27XL/DCSXL Ag DC lead/3 Stage Regs/Recap PCB+No Pitch/Strobe/Light ARM SME V(Kondo Ag Rewire&Tags) MC Cadenza Black FGS CABLES Arm Yannis SPD-4 IC Yannis 222 Litz+Ag bullets Power WAR PRE ATC SCA2 SPEAKERS ATC 50ASL STANDS Atacama PHONO Sugden Masterclass PA4 SUT Ortofon ST80SE POWER PSAudio P10

    VALVE
    PRE
    Croft Epoch(Modded) AMP Sondex S100 (Modded) SPEAKERS Tannoy 15"MG+RFC Warwick cabs+ Ref XO + Batpure supertweeters DECK Garrard 301 Mat Teunto Bearings 401(Bastin) Plinth Bamboo Arms 3009/3012 PSU Eagle+Tachometer MC Ag Meister II/FGS + Ortofon SPU MONO CABLES Arm Yannis 420.5 Litz+ SpeakerPC Tripple C+WBT-0681 Ag IC Oyaide FTVS-510 AgWBT 0110Ag Phonostages Paradise(4 Box Mega-Modded) / Croft Musicmaker



  3. #3
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,776
    I'm Martin.

    Default

    It's one of those irregular verbs.

    I have a clone
    You have a 'tribute'
    He's got a knock-off
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  4. #4
    Join Date: Mar 2016

    Location: Barnet, london UK

    Posts: 2,146
    I'm Adam.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    It's one of those irregular verbs.

    I have a clone
    You have a 'tribute'
    He's got a knock-off
    Yes... but it's pretty clear when something is a complete 'Knock off' identical copy ?

    I ask the question as there seem to be no rules of selling such things on the forum?
    "lack of passion is fatal"


    Vinyl: Thorens TD-124mk2 / SME-312 Aluminium 'special' / SME M2-9R / STEREO: Etsuro Urushi Cobalt / Shure M3D / Ortofon SPU A95 / Cartridge Man Music Master / Shure - SC35C (US) / SAEC C3 MC MONO: Miyajima Zero B 0.7mil mono / Miyajima Premium 1.0 / Amps & SUTs: Radford STA25 mk3 / AD Audio 'Satchmo2' pre & LCR phono / Hashimoto HM-7 SUT / ETR-MONO SUT Digital: Audio Note 4.1 (with DAC5 upgrades) DAC / Roon / Tidal Speakers: Tannoy 12" MGs' in RFC custom 'Rutland' Cabinets with RFC crossovers / Tannoy ST-100 Super Tweeters Cables: LFD Grainless phono / RFC Mercury / Duelund DCA16GA tinned copper / Kimber 12TC / SW1X Audio Design USB-SPdif / Duelund DCA20GA interconnects / SW1X Audio SPDIF Aero 6 / Mains Power Conditioner / Box Furniture rack / Audiodesk Systeme Vinyl Cleaner / a very beautiful & understanding Wife!

  5. #5
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,776
    I'm Martin.

    Default

    Okay well I'd say

    Clone - as an exact a copy as possible built to the same - or very close- quality as the original

    Tribute - looks similar and of a decent standard but not identical copy and not pretending to be.

    Knock-off - looks to be the real thing on first glance but significantly different on inspection, lower quality parts and build, maybe not even the same topology.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  6. #6
    Join Date: Dec 2008

    Location: East Riding of Yorkshire these days

    Posts: 4,779
    I'm Shaun.

    Default

    Forgive me as I am really not trying to derail this thread but I have noticed similar with kit cars. AC Cobra replicas that even have a fake AC badge on them. These things are almost an exact copy and you see people that have built them expecting to get £46k for them..! It is a knock off mate, nothing more nothing less. Getting back to the OP, I have noticed the amps on ebay too.

  7. #7
    Join Date: Nov 2010

    Location: Yorkshire

    Posts: 9,302
    I'm Andrew.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Haselsh1 View Post
    These things are almost an exact copy and you see people that have built them expecting to get £46k for them..!
    Yep, steep prices. But I would imagine this includes and individuals time taken to build the thing. Quite often people conveniently forget this aspect and expect everything at stupidly low prices.
    SS
    CD Teac VRDS25X(Audiotuned) DECK 1210 Mat Crystal Audio Mods MN Base/Bearing/Platter+Ebony armboard Feet Isonoe PSU Paul Hynes SR7EHD-27XL/DCSXL Ag DC lead/3 Stage Regs/Recap PCB+No Pitch/Strobe/Light ARM SME V(Kondo Ag Rewire&Tags) MC Cadenza Black FGS CABLES Arm Yannis SPD-4 IC Yannis 222 Litz+Ag bullets Power WAR PRE ATC SCA2 SPEAKERS ATC 50ASL STANDS Atacama PHONO Sugden Masterclass PA4 SUT Ortofon ST80SE POWER PSAudio P10

    VALVE
    PRE
    Croft Epoch(Modded) AMP Sondex S100 (Modded) SPEAKERS Tannoy 15"MG+RFC Warwick cabs+ Ref XO + Batpure supertweeters DECK Garrard 301 Mat Teunto Bearings 401(Bastin) Plinth Bamboo Arms 3009/3012 PSU Eagle+Tachometer MC Ag Meister II/FGS + Ortofon SPU MONO CABLES Arm Yannis 420.5 Litz+ SpeakerPC Tripple C+WBT-0681 Ag IC Oyaide FTVS-510 AgWBT 0110Ag Phonostages Paradise(4 Box Mega-Modded) / Croft Musicmaker



  8. #8
    Join Date: Aug 2016

    Location: Kent UK

    Posts: 223
    I'm Paul.

    Default

    To me a clone would be a copy of something but sold as a copy

    A knockoff is a copy of something but sold as the original

    Problems often arise when you get a knockoff of a clone, as with most stuff coming out of China and sold on eBay, and not talking of Audio gear with that last bit
    Current setup Thorens TD-160 Mk1 with Denon DL-110 MC Cartridge, Pioneer PD-8700 CD Player, Yamaha AX-592 Amp, Yamaha CDX-810 CD Player, Yamaha KX-480 Cassette Deck, Yamaha TX-492RDS Tuner, Monitor Audio Bronze 5 speakers, Van-Damme Cables throughout.

  9. #9
    Join Date: Mar 2016

    Location: Barnet, london UK

    Posts: 2,146
    I'm Adam.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Haselsh1 View Post
    Getting back to the OP, I have noticed the amps on ebay too.
    On eBay ?! I’ve noticed one in the classifieds on AOS !!
    "lack of passion is fatal"


    Vinyl: Thorens TD-124mk2 / SME-312 Aluminium 'special' / SME M2-9R / STEREO: Etsuro Urushi Cobalt / Shure M3D / Ortofon SPU A95 / Cartridge Man Music Master / Shure - SC35C (US) / SAEC C3 MC MONO: Miyajima Zero B 0.7mil mono / Miyajima Premium 1.0 / Amps & SUTs: Radford STA25 mk3 / AD Audio 'Satchmo2' pre & LCR phono / Hashimoto HM-7 SUT / ETR-MONO SUT Digital: Audio Note 4.1 (with DAC5 upgrades) DAC / Roon / Tidal Speakers: Tannoy 12" MGs' in RFC custom 'Rutland' Cabinets with RFC crossovers / Tannoy ST-100 Super Tweeters Cables: LFD Grainless phono / RFC Mercury / Duelund DCA16GA tinned copper / Kimber 12TC / SW1X Audio Design USB-SPdif / Duelund DCA20GA interconnects / SW1X Audio SPDIF Aero 6 / Mains Power Conditioner / Box Furniture rack / Audiodesk Systeme Vinyl Cleaner / a very beautiful & understanding Wife!

  10. #10
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,776
    I'm Martin.

    Default

    Selling a clone or a copy or a knock off and saying that it is a clone, copy or knock-off is fine. Selling a clone, copy or knock-off and trying to deceive people that it is the real thing is not.

    The amp you mention - I'm assuming we are thinking of the same one - is described as a clone so no-one who buys it would be deceived into thinking it was anything other than that. That's the key point I think.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

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