+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 10 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 92

Thread: PRaT - please explain

  1. #1
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: The Black Country

    Posts: 5,417
    I'm Alan.

    Default PRaT - please explain

    I have never been a fan of the term PRaT. Surely pace, rhythm and timing are all associated with the flow of the music so what's the distinction?

    Please explain succinctly.
    No Naim bullshit in other words.
    Firebottle - for the no bottleneck approach.

    I love Hendrix for so many reasons. He was so much more than just a blues guitarist - he played damn well any kind of guitar he wanted. In fact I'm not sure if he even played the guitar - he played music. - Stevie Ray Vaughan

  2. #2
    Join Date: Nov 2011

    Location: Seaton, Devon, UK

    Posts: 5,186
    I'm Adrian.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebottle View Post
    I have never been a fan of the term PRaT. Surely pace, rhythm and timing are all associated with the flow of the music so what's the distinction?

    Please explain succinctly.
    No Naim bullshit in other words.
    Well I will try and come to this question from a purely musical background, having been an amateur musician and played in a number of bands I can relate to it, but only to an extent.

    When you play a piece of music you want to perform it at a tempo(beats per minute) this reflects the feeling embodied by the piece, now this may sound like arty party bullshit but it really isn't, for example if you were to play the wedding march at half is scored tempo at least it would sound dour at worst a dirge, something a bride would not appreciate. So this is pace.

    Now for rhythm, this is not as straight forward to define, well at least not for me, rhythm is how the piece is construction in terms of beats to a bar or measure, so for example in nearly all pop and rock music it is 4 beats to the bar, so called 4/4 time, in a waltz it is 3/4 time or 3 beats to a bar. So in 4/4 time we can count 1, 2, 3, 4 very often emphasise by a hi-hat or snare drum in rock/pop music. Now what needs to be understood is that the rhythm is obviously closely tied to the tempo, so if the tempo or how quickly or slowly you count 1,2,3,4 effectively speeds up or slow down the music or PACE. Got there in the end.

    So what does PRaT have to do with a hifi system, well some cynics would say absolutely nothing, the system used of whatever quality should just reproduce what has been recorded which in itself where the PRaT is, by definition it is what is part of the musical structure, the rest is musical notes played on a selection of instruments and with gaps between them, or silences, put all together and you get a musical piece. However others would argue differently, and this is really I believe from a technical point of view, and I am not sure anyone has proved this to be true scientifically, what other would say is that the act of reproducing the music recorded require it to go through various electrical and even mechanical processes(think turntable and cartridges) so if any of these elements, electrical circuits for example cause delay or modification to the signal previously transcribed be it on a record, tape or on a digital medium then any aspect of PRaT maybe be changed. I hope that makes some sense.

    Well I can see some sense to this argument, but you also have to consider the recording process as well, from microphones, amps, mixing desk, digital or analog through to recording master and then onto the pressing process(and I do not differentiate between digital and analogue) because in theory the PRaT could be modified during any of these stages if we agree with the above statement.

    So I suspect when we see commentary from reviewers saying "the system has a great sense PRaT" what they really mean is that they think it is reproducing the music as they would expect it to sound or in fact in the case of a live recording it sounds like it did when they were at the concert. Whether this is actually true or just wishful thinking is another matter. IMHO if you took the best possible live recording you could think of then the only way you could get close to actually replicating in the real sense aurally would be to replay in in the original venue with the same number of people present and a system capable of replaying it as recorded. But even then it might not be accurate because of what happened in the record process but I suspect the PRaT would pretty good.

    I apologise if some of you think this is a load of guff, you are probably right.
    [FONT="Arial"]
    Listening is the act of aural discrimination and dissemination of sound, and accepting you get it wrong sometimes


    Pro-Ject Signature 10 TT & arm, Benz Micro LP-S & Michel Cusis MC cartridge, Furutech AG-12-R4 High Performance Phono Cable, LFD MMC special phono stage, Rothwell MCX SUT, RaspberryPi/HifiBerry Digi to Beresford Caiman SEG DAC, Sony 3d blu-Ray for CDs to Caiman SEG, ALLNIC T1500 MKII SET 300B amp, Wilson Benesch Vector speakers and JBL L100 Century's , Chord Epic speaker leads, & signature links, the Eccose Conductor CA1 cd to pre, I think I am at audio nirvana, but donít tell anyone

  3. #3
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: Southall, West London

    Posts: 43,065
    I'm Geoff.

    Default

    I can simplify this a bit. A rubbish system sounds shit!
    "when common sense, logic and plausibility are excluded. All that remain are foolishness and lies"

  4. #4
    Join Date: Nov 2011

    Location: Seaton, Devon, UK

    Posts: 5,186
    I'm Adrian.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by walpurgis View Post
    I can simplify this a bit. A rubbish system sounds shit!
    True, but it still might have PRaT.
    [FONT="Arial"]
    Listening is the act of aural discrimination and dissemination of sound, and accepting you get it wrong sometimes


    Pro-Ject Signature 10 TT & arm, Benz Micro LP-S & Michel Cusis MC cartridge, Furutech AG-12-R4 High Performance Phono Cable, LFD MMC special phono stage, Rothwell MCX SUT, RaspberryPi/HifiBerry Digi to Beresford Caiman SEG DAC, Sony 3d blu-Ray for CDs to Caiman SEG, ALLNIC T1500 MKII SET 300B amp, Wilson Benesch Vector speakers and JBL L100 Century's , Chord Epic speaker leads, & signature links, the Eccose Conductor CA1 cd to pre, I think I am at audio nirvana, but donít tell anyone

  5. #5
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: Southall, West London

    Posts: 43,065
    I'm Geoff.

    Default

    PRaT was a bit of hype from the glory days of the Linn/Naim Flat Earthers. Pace, rhythm and timing are (amongst others) worthwhile and desirable attributes in a system. But of course, any decent Hi-Fi will have them. There's no mystique about this.
    "when common sense, logic and plausibility are excluded. All that remain are foolishness and lies"

  6. #6
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 27,514
    I'm Martin.

    Default

    A way to sell the new, smaller breed of speakers appearing at the time, like Kans and Acoustic Energy? Not much body to the sound but you handle that objection by suggesting that they are more exciting to listen to.
    Current Lash Up:

    *Oppo BDT-101CI* Nelson Pass DCB1 / Krell KSA100 mkII * JM Lab Electra 926 *


    'You fool! To think that your ape-brain could contain the full knowledge of the Krell!'

  7. #7
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: The Black Country

    Posts: 5,417
    I'm Alan.

    Default

    Adrian thanks for a comprehensive reply. I understand the construct of music even though I am not a musician.

    However what I have always though when PRaT is mentioned is as you have said, it is part of the musical structure. What I can't grasp is why any kit might vary the relationship between the elements in PRaT, so why was this term invented (if not as a marketing 'tool') when in my mind these things can't be separated.

    When people rave about the benefits of PRaT or otherwise are they mistaking transient attack (or speed if you like) and possibly a less than crisp bass line for failings in Timing or Rhythm respectively?

  8. #8
    Join Date: Nov 2013

    Location: HAMPSTEAD

    Posts: 965
    I'm brian.

    Default

    Perhaps more of an emphasis on leading edge ?, rather than a phater type of sound

  9. #9
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: Southall, West London

    Posts: 43,065
    I'm Geoff.

    Default

    In reply to Martin.

    That sort of leaves the Linn Saras out on a limb. They may not have been very big and were decidedly odd tonally and pretty coloured, but they were definitely an exciting listen. The problem was pumping enough watts into them to shift air without blowing them up. It was a thin line.
    "when common sense, logic and plausibility are excluded. All that remain are foolishness and lies"

  10. #10
    Join Date: Oct 2011

    Location: Bacup

    Posts: 481
    I'm Andrew.

    Default

    Just imagine if youíd put together a system that slowed down the music, altered the rhythm and stuff happened at the wrong time.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 10 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •