When to MM or MM a curious thing, I've been playing again

[martinswimmer]

I take your point on genre and individual records, but I think I would try and get to just two cartridges to cover all.

I looked at the Shure Ultra 500 and it sells for quite a bit it seems.

I meant that I didn't manage to match the tonearm compliance because my cartridges range from very compliant to not.

I think the Ultra 500 is overpriced.
I've got a couple of Shure V15 Type V-MR and I cannot hear any significant difference.

I've just purchased a Victor X-1 and looking for a Fidelity Research FR-7, Grace F9 and would also like to tick off a Miyajima of some sort, Phasemation and Ikeda (the one with no cantilever).
After I've done that - I'll rationalise the collection - allocate a cartridge for different genres, then mark every record that I own with the turntable/tonearm/cartridge that it should be played on.

[Barry]

I think the Ultra 500 is overpriced.
I've got a couple of Shure V15 Type V-MR and I cannot hear any significant difference.

I've just purchased a Victor X-1 and looking for a Fidelity Research FR-7, Grace F9 and would also like to tick off a Miyajima of some sort, Phasemation and Ikeda (the one with no cantilever).

Of the cartridges you mention, I have experience of a few of them:

Shure V15 V-MR: a significant improvement on the, then ubiquitous V15 III. Very good and worth keeping as long as you can get the stylii,

JVC X-1: This has a Shibata profile stylus and has the hottest treble of any cartridge I have heard. Initially impressive with a false sense of detail, but quickly becomes tiring,

Grace F9E: One of the best MMs around, made even better if an F-11E stylus is fitted in place. Sadly no longer in production, so the same situation as with Shure,

Ikeda (cantileverless MC designs): If you like the attack and 'air' of the Deccas coupled with the refinement of a good MC, then this could well be your last cartridge - it is mine.

Since Ikeda was the chief engineer at Fidelity Research, all of the FR cartridges are well worth considering.

[martinswimmer]

Of the cartridges you mention, I have experience of a few of them:

Shure V15 V-MR: a significant improvement on the, then ubiquitous V15 III. Very good and worth keeping as long as you can get the stylii,

JVC X-1: This has a Shibata profile stylus and has the hottest treble of any cartridge I have heard. Initially impressive with a false sence of detail, but quickly becomes tiring,

Grace F9E: One of the best MMs around, made even better if an F-11E stylus is fitted in place. Sadly no longer in production, so the same situation as with Shure,

Ikeda (cantileverless MC designs): If you like the attack and 'air' of the Deccas coupled with the refinement of a good MC, then this could well be your last cartridge - it is mine.

Since Ikeda was the chief engineer at Fidelity Research, all of the FR cartridges are well worth considering.

Hi Barry, thanks for this.

Shure - Jico now sells the MR stylus.
Your JVC X-1 remark is interesting and I expect it to be just like you described it.
I've never owned a Decca and the reason why I'm not considering one is because it's not possible to guarantee that the one I finish up buying is a good one and that will bother me, hence the Ikeda :-)
I do like the sound of Decca.

[Mike Reed]

Just a thought, Adrian. The ability to detect the greatest differences in presentation and performance from cart's must largely depend upon the arm. You wouldn't get much out of a stone-bodied Koetsu when used on a Linn basic, e.g.

Whereas magnets etc. work well in nearly all low medium mass arms (<12g, e.g.), coils differ widely and also demand capable arms, i.m.o.

[AJSki2fly]

Just a thought, Adrian. The ability to detect the greatest differences in presentation and performance from cart's must largely depend upon the arm. You wouldn't get much out of a stone-bodied Koetsu when used on a Linn basic, e.g.

Whereas magnets etc. work well in nearly all low medium mass arms (<12g, e.g.), coils differ widely and also demand capable arms, i.m.o.

The Pro-Ject Signature 10" arm has 15.5gm effective mass (18,5 with Aluminium headshell) and Pro-Ject say it is good for "A unique counterweight construction allows you to balance cartridges from 5 up to 25 grams (excluding headshell) depending on weight of the chosen headshell (up to 37 grams with ´Alu´, up to 39 grams with ´Carbon´, up to 41 grams with ´Wood´). So, this is also an ideal tonearm for direct mounting of SPU cartridges."

The Rondo is 10.5 g, the Michell Cusis is 8.5g, and the LP-S is 16g. So all the MCs are well within arm spec and all set up and track very well, I have tried them all with both the Pro-Ject Aluminium Headshell and the Timestep Ebony one I have, which adds a bit to the weight but it still within spec with the LP-S. I have found that I prefer both the Cusis and LP-S with the ebony head shell, bass to low mids are better controlled and defined, and slightly better soundstage, I have come to the conclusion this may be due to the base of of both these cartridges being metal and possibly transferring resonance via a metal headshell contact. It makes little difference which head shell I use with the Rondo blue. the Ortofon OM also has a metal base and I have only tried it with the aluminium head shell, so it would be interesting it the ebony head shel improves this as well.

I find it quite interesting that at times small changes can make quite a change to tone and/or presentation, but I have found you have to listen to a particular setup for a while with well known records before jumping to conclusions or deciding somas better or worse then another.

[Mike Reed]

Hi Adrian, Simply from received wisdom, any arm which can allow SPUs to flourish has to be a good one! Can't see magnets doing well, but as I've found with my VMS, this is not a given. My K. Black Goldline thrived in my 11g SME Five, and my Vermillion sounded pretty good too, but it was only when I changed to the longer and slightly heavier arms that the Urushi really shone (and would be even better in a 20g + arm, I guess. The Black was sold before changing arms.

[AJSki2fly]

Hi Adrian, Simply from received wisdom, any arm which can allow SPUs to flourish has to be a good one! Can't see magnets doing well, but as I've found with my VMS, this is not a given. My K. Black Goldline thrived in my 11g SME Five, and my Vermillion sounded pretty good too, but it was only when I changed to the longer and slightly heavier arms that the Urushi really shone (and would be even better in a 20g + arm, I guess. The Black was sold before changing arms.

Hi Mike, I agree with your thoughts, I have tried most of my cartridges with two previously owned arms, an SME IV which was nearer to a V (it just didn't have the bias wheel adjuster) and a Jelco TK850M 10". The carts worked ok with the SME but one occasions it felt a little flat, this was on a upgraded Gyrodec and a Voyd, it worked better on the Voyd, I put this differences down to feedback and isolation issues with the Gyrodec to the Arm. With the Jelco both the Cusis and LP-S came alive, everything seemed to have more zing and energy, and interestingly this has remained the case with the Project 10", but perhaps slightly more control and definition especially in the lower registers.

I think it is very difficult to be completely clear with this stuff, really what you need is identical TT's side by side with differenct arms and the ability to switch a cartridge from one to the other on the fly and do back to back comparisons with at least 10 very well known tracks, then you have a chance of getting a clear audible picture of which you prefer, something I will never be able to do I think.

[Mike Reed]

I think it is very difficult to be completely clear with this stuff, really what you need is identical TT's side by side with differenct arms and the ability to switch a cartridge from one to the other on the fly and do back to back comparisons with at least 10 very well known tracks, then you have a chance of getting a clear audible picture of which you prefer, something I will never be able to do I think.

You and me both, Adrian, and most of the audio fraternity to boot, I'd suggest. Besides, I dunno about you, but experimentation and tweakery may be very interesting and even informative, but it ain't listening to music !!! Changing I/Cs around (CD to pre; pre to powers etc.) may elicit subjectively positive changes, but they're soon forgotten. One you've got adequate synergy, use the stuff for the purpose intended ! Pity that audiophiles tend to keep seeking the sunny uplands of musical thrills.

[Mike Reed]

I meant that I didn't manage to match the tonearm compliance because my cartridges range from very compliant to not.

I think the Ultra 500 is overpriced.
I've got a couple of Shure V15 Type V-MR and I cannot hear any significant difference.

I've just purchased a Victor X-1 and looking for a Fidelity Research FR-7, Grace F9 and would also like to tick off a Miyajima of some sort, Phasemation and Ikeda (the one with no cantilever).
After I've done that - I'll rationalise the collection - allocate a cartridge for different genres, then mark every record that I own with the turntable/tonearm/cartridge that it should be played on.

Dear me, Martin; this seems like a bookkeeper's approach to recorded music ! Of the three last mentioned cart's, you might have almost covered the tonal range ! Miyajima equates to Koetsu; Phasemation is in the wider Transfig. camp (or Benz to Lyra in extent, I s'pose) and the Ikeda, from received wisdom, the coil version of a Decca. An arm in excess of 20g is beneficial for most Miyajimas, even more so than Koetsu. Hugo (Ammonite Audio) is a distant neighbour (Norwich) and does the first two cart's, along with arms which complement them. He had a Shilabe on his Thorens TD124 (not sure about arm) alongside my Urushi Vermillion on Dais and 12" PU7. We (bake-off) were surprised at the similarity in presentation.

[AJSki2fly]

You and me both, Adrian, and most of the audio fraternity to boot, I'd suggest. Besides, I dunno about you, but experimentation and tweakery may be very interesting and even informative, but it ain't listening to music !!! Changing I/Cs around (CD to pre; pre to powers etc.) may elicit subjectively positive changes, but they're soon forgotten. One you've got adequate synergy, use the stuff for the purpose intended ! Pity that audiophiles tend to keep seeking the sunny uplands of musical thrills.

Exactly! I am pretty certain that within my available budget I am happy (very happy) with how it all sounds, even with these tired ears. As long as I can sit an enjoy what I hear I am happy. The MM debacle was to serve 2 purposes, one to satisfy my curiosity and the other to see if I could find an acceptable cartridge listening solution at a relatively more economic level that would help me more in the long term. I suspect that I will only get to buy one more £2-3K MC cartridge and so would like to have other options, even if their is a small compromise on detail.

I just remember my best friend happens to have a hardly used Ortofon stylus 40 from Dual TT some years back, so he is going to let me try it out and see what I think.