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Thread: When to MM or MM a curious thing, I've been playing again

  1. #1
    Join Date: Nov 2011

    Location: Seaton, Devon, UK

    Posts: 13,240
    I'm Adrian.

    Default When to MM or MM a curious thing, I've been playing again

    Well out of curiosity and a desire to understand how a simple change effects the overall SQ of my system I have been Cartridge swapping, and thought you might find this interesting.

    Firstly I have these MC cartridges, Ortofon Rondo Blue ~250hrs use, Michell Cusis (Micro Benz Wood S in composite body) ~700hrs use, and Benz Micro LP-S ~ 200hrs use

    Then I have this MM Ortofon OM with Dual DN165E stylus ~2hrs use, this was given to me about 3 years ago and was brand new unused.

    Firstly how I would grade the cartridges, from 1-10, first figure is soundstage, 2nd is for detail/clarity, 3rd is top end clarity, 4th is for bass control/depth, last is overall musicallity listenability.

    Rondo Blue - 8.5, 8, 8.5, 8, 8.5

    Michell Cusis - 9, 9, 9, 9.5, 9

    Benz Micr LP-S - 9.5, 9.5, 10, 9.5, 9.5 or above

    and now we come to the MM

    Ortofon OM/DN165E 8.5, 8, 8, 8, 8

    For reference the only change when using a MM cartridge is to remove the Rothwell MCX SUT, which is pretty neutral and performs very well, better than the MC side of the LFD IMO, but this is a very subtle difference. I also took great efforts setting up the Ortofon OM/DN165E in my TT and also used the HiFi news test record to check this, and it tracked every test track perfectly. When setting up I did take time to dial in the VTA on the arm and found that being very slightly down at the rear gave the best result, and I mean very sightly.

    So lets put this into context, the Rondo Blue was originally around £550, the Michell Cusis £1100, and the LP-S is £2800, and last but not least is the Ortofon OM at an eye watering price of about £60 (I think). Is the 9.5 for the LP-S actually and 15% improvement in SQ over the Ortofon OM/DN165E? Actually IMHO it certainly is not, maybe somewhere between 5-10% at most, but you really need to be listening for it, not just casually listening, if you are just putting on a record and not focusing on it then forget spending big bucks, even then this is questionable.

    So to summarise, based on the scores above the £60 MM cartridge certainly performs very well and is very good VFM (I am not exactly sure where the OM/DN165E would fit in the current OM range but I would presume similar to an OM 5E). But this is where it is subjectively in terms of my personal listening experience, the Rondo Blue is certainly a great listen, maybe a tinge top-endy, the Cusis is a lovely cartridge, very natural and musical, the LP-S is an outright winner but only in terms of that little extra detail and definition over the Cusis. So finally the Ortofon OM/DN165E, well this has actually taken me aback somewhat, I am sat here listening to Eva Cassidy ‎– Nightbird, Label: Blix Street Records ‎– BOX20142, 7 × Vinyl, LP, 45 RPM with it and I have to say it is extremely listenable, lots of detail and control, and pretty musical. I have also listened to some other favourite test listening tracks and feel the same. By the way since starting to write this I have played another 2 hour of records and I am pretty sure it is improving, becoming a little richer and slightly more detail, presumably bedding in, as I said it was brand new when I fitted it last night.

    So I think I have learned a big lesson here in terms of hifi and SQ reward, so much so that I think I will probably invest in a better MM cartridge for my everyday use, and just replace the stylus when needed, I will use the MC's when I feel like a change and when they are used up will move them on for someone else to re-tip. I might keep the LP-S but only if I can afford to re-tip it at the time. My current thoughts based on what I have seen others say would be an ORTOFON 2M BLACK MM, but I am open to other suggestions or views.
    Last edited by AJSki2fly; 15-03-2020 at 15:14. Reason: Corrected DN105E to DN165E
    Listening is the act of aural discrimination and dissemination of sound, and accepting you get it wrong sometimes.

    Analog Inputs: Pro-Ject Signature 10 TT & arm, Benz Micro LP-S, Michel Cusis MC, Goldring 2500 and Ortofon Rondo Blue cartridges, Hitachi FT5500 mk2 Tuner

    Digital:- Marantz SA-KI Pearl CD player, RaspberryPi/HifiBerry Digi+ Pro, Buffalo NAS Drive

    Amplification:- AudioValve Sunilda phono stage, Krell KSP-7B pre-amp, Krell KSA-80 power amp

    Output: Wilson Benesch Vector speakers, KLH Ultimate One Headphones

    Cables: Tellurium Q Ultra Black II RCA & Chord Epic 2 RCA, various speaker leads, & links


    I think I am nearing audio nirvana, but don’t tell anyone.

  2. #2
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Norwich

    Posts: 1,064
    I'm Mike.

    Default

    Adrian, that's quite an experiment, and I'm relieved to see the LP-S figures topping all others. However, bear in mind that this was through one phono stage (which may well have a positive or negative bias to certain cart's).

    I 'found' an old VMS 20E mk 2 (must have picked it up somewhere in the past but never used it) and installed it on an inappropriate arm (12" Ace Anna at about 14g) and was amazed at the result. Others heard it at a bake-off so it wasn't just an aberration of my hearing. I have, on the other (gimballed) arm, a Proteus, and well remember how my K. Urushi sounded when in circuit.

    I made me seriously wonder if the extra thousands of £££ justified those little extra nuances in s.q. (the Ortofon is worth, say, £50 ish). However, the mm went into the mm stage of my pre. and the others into the mc inputs. Think I'm still sold on getting that extra involvement, but to hear a 30 to 40 year old mm sounding like that surprised me greatly. It's still on the arm as it's not worth selling but doesn't get used in favour of the Proteus.

  3. #3
    Join Date: Nov 2011

    Location: Seaton, Devon, UK

    Posts: 13,240
    I'm Adrian.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Reed View Post
    Adrian, that's quite an experiment, and I'm relieved to see the LP-S figures topping all others. However, bear in mind that this was through one phono stage (which may well have a positive or negative bias to certain cart's).

    I 'found' an old VMS 20E mk 2 (must have picked it up somewhere in the past but never used it) and installed it on an inappropriate arm (12" Ace Anna at about 14g) and was amazed at the result. Others heard it at a bake-off so it wasn't just an aberration of my hearing. I have, on the other (gimballed) arm, a Proteus, and well remember how my K. Urushi sounded when in circuit.

    I made me seriously wonder if the extra thousands of £££ justified those little extra nuances in s.q. (the Ortofon is worth, say, £50 ish). However, the mm went into the mm stage of my pre. and the others into the mc inputs. Think I'm still sold on getting that extra involvement, but to hear a 30 to 40 year old mm sounding like that surprised me greatly. It's still on the arm as it's not worth selling but doesn't get used in favour of the Proteus.
    Much the same as my findings Mike. I did consider the phono stage differences but the MC's are all similar loading and the MCX SUT is a good match for all of them and as I said works well with the LFD phono on MM.

    As I said it certainly makes me wonder if over £500-600 on a cartridge is worth the benefits, especially when you also take into account the running cost for a £2K is about £1.50 per play of a record, based on a life of 1000 hours and an average of 40 minutes an LP. Whereas £500 MM cartridge is about 37p and once you replace the stylus it is about 23p an LP. A substantial cost difference to a mid to high end MC cartridge, and if you listen as much as me and have a limited budget it is not that unimportant.
    Listening is the act of aural discrimination and dissemination of sound, and accepting you get it wrong sometimes.

    Analog Inputs: Pro-Ject Signature 10 TT & arm, Benz Micro LP-S, Michel Cusis MC, Goldring 2500 and Ortofon Rondo Blue cartridges, Hitachi FT5500 mk2 Tuner

    Digital:- Marantz SA-KI Pearl CD player, RaspberryPi/HifiBerry Digi+ Pro, Buffalo NAS Drive

    Amplification:- AudioValve Sunilda phono stage, Krell KSP-7B pre-amp, Krell KSA-80 power amp

    Output: Wilson Benesch Vector speakers, KLH Ultimate One Headphones

    Cables: Tellurium Q Ultra Black II RCA & Chord Epic 2 RCA, various speaker leads, & links


    I think I am nearing audio nirvana, but don’t tell anyone.

  4. #4
    Join Date: Nov 2010

    Location: Chorley, Lancs

    Posts: 2,734
    I'm Mike.

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    HiFi is a game of diminishing returns, once above a base level the differences become smaller and smaller it's always been like that, system synergy is probably the most important thing, making sure that everything plays happily with everything else


    As the late Colonel Sanders once said
    "I'm too drunk to taste this chicken!!"

  5. #5
    Join Date: Nov 2011

    Location: Seaton, Devon, UK

    Posts: 13,240
    I'm Adrian.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AJSki2fly View Post
    Much the same as my findings Mike. I did consider the phono stage differences but the MC's are all similar loading and the MCX SUT is a good match for all of them and as I said works well with the LFD phono on MM.

    As I said it certainly makes me wonder if over £500-600 on a cartridge is worth the benefits, especially when you also take into account the running cost for a £2K is about £1.50 per play of a record, based on a life of 1000 hours and an average of 40 minutes an LP. Whereas £500 MM cartridge is about 37p and once you replace the stylus it is about 23p an LP. A substantial cost difference to a mid to high end MC cartridge, and if you listen as much as me and have a limited budget it is not that unimportant.
    Just had a thought maybe my ears have deteriorated to the point I can't hear that much difference anyway, , I hope not but it probably is something to do with it. Just listening to Supertramp - Crime of the Century with the Ortofon OM/DN165E and strangely enough it sounds very much like I recall it sounding when I had a Dual 505 with the same cartridge on it many years ago.
    Listening is the act of aural discrimination and dissemination of sound, and accepting you get it wrong sometimes.

    Analog Inputs: Pro-Ject Signature 10 TT & arm, Benz Micro LP-S, Michel Cusis MC, Goldring 2500 and Ortofon Rondo Blue cartridges, Hitachi FT5500 mk2 Tuner

    Digital:- Marantz SA-KI Pearl CD player, RaspberryPi/HifiBerry Digi+ Pro, Buffalo NAS Drive

    Amplification:- AudioValve Sunilda phono stage, Krell KSP-7B pre-amp, Krell KSA-80 power amp

    Output: Wilson Benesch Vector speakers, KLH Ultimate One Headphones

    Cables: Tellurium Q Ultra Black II RCA & Chord Epic 2 RCA, various speaker leads, & links


    I think I am nearing audio nirvana, but don’t tell anyone.

  6. #6
    Join Date: May 2012

    Location: Toulouse, France

    Posts: 6,562
    I'm Kevin.

    Default

    I have been pondering over getting an expensive (€1k) MC cartridge, but it is the law of diminishing returns, and the cost per LP that puts me off. A decent MM will give 80 to 90% (probably) of a good MC, and is much more wallet friendly.

    Recently I have been using an Audio Technica AT20SLa, and I am quite happy with it. I never did like the 2M Black though. I found it a bit cold and clinical, but I guess that is a matter of taste and the system it is partnered with.
    Kevin

    Too busy enjoying the music....

    European loan coordinator for Graham Slee HiFi system components..

  7. #7
    Join Date: Apr 2015

    Location: london

    Posts: 162
    I'm martin.

    Default

    This is very interesting.
    Recently I've been experimenting in a similar fashion and my findings are similar to yours.

    For the sake of keeping things simple, I've only been using a single turntable and a single tonearm. The phono stage is Valab LCR, that doesn't seem to allow for capacitance settings.
    The preamp is passive.

    The cartridges used were:

    MC
    Shelter 901 Mk3, Entre EC-1, Supex SDX-1000, Sony XL-55 Pro, Ortofon MC25FL

    MM & MI
    Shure Ultra 500, Technics EPC205 Mk3, Grado FT+ and AT-110

    I could grade them like you did in terms of various SQ parameters, but I found that their performance varied comparatively depending on the genre and the record itself.
    Also, how can one meaningfully compare all these very different cartridges without showing some sympathy for their compliance needs?

    My only conclusion was that some cartridges are much more universal - so produce more enjoyable sound playing different records, but that each of these cartridges was showing particular strengths.
    There wasn't a single one that could be discarded as being sub standard in every sense.

    The most flawed out of them all was the Grado, but then that same Grado was capable of playing otherwise totally unlistenable records, in particular operas and thin classical recordings. With the right record is has an amazing PRAT.

    The Technics is the most forward one - very impressive with Rock, great separation and crystal clear

    The Shure is very competent but along with the Technics presents a picture which has great bass and great highs but a thin mid-range. Might have been compliance issue.

    The Sony is a truly amazing cartridge which has some qualities that I've never heard anywhere else and is the most universal cartridge here, so easily my favourite

    Supex and EC-1 - very smooth

    AT - amazing for the money

    There's a guy on Youtube - HALCRO and he compares many interesting cartridges - i found my favourite there, but it's a Youtube clip, different setup...

    My takeaway is that the price is not indicative of the SQ. You definitely seem to get more of a bang for money with vintage cartridges, but then there are issues with them potentially being worn out or with suspension issues.
    But perhaps cheaper buying a few of these past masters and selling them on if not good in your system.

  8. #8
    Join Date: Nov 2011

    Location: Seaton, Devon, UK

    Posts: 13,240
    I'm Adrian.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CageyH View Post
    I have been pondering over getting an expensive (€1k) MC cartridge, but it is the law of diminishing returns, and the cost per LP that puts me off. A decent MM will give 80 to 90% (probably) of a good MC, and is much more wallet friendly.

    Recently I have been using an Audio Technica AT20SLa, and I am quite happy with it. I never did like the 2M Black though. I found it a bit cold and clinical, but I guess that is a matter of taste and the system it is partnered with.
    I have found that the Ortofon cartridges can be quite picking on setup, particularly VTA, so having an TT/ARM set up that allows you to dial it in to the sweet spot I think is quite important. I have found the Micro Benz to be similar in that respect as well. I will have to try and have a listen to a 2m Black and see if it is for more or not, so hard to do with cartridges though.
    Listening is the act of aural discrimination and dissemination of sound, and accepting you get it wrong sometimes.

    Analog Inputs: Pro-Ject Signature 10 TT & arm, Benz Micro LP-S, Michel Cusis MC, Goldring 2500 and Ortofon Rondo Blue cartridges, Hitachi FT5500 mk2 Tuner

    Digital:- Marantz SA-KI Pearl CD player, RaspberryPi/HifiBerry Digi+ Pro, Buffalo NAS Drive

    Amplification:- AudioValve Sunilda phono stage, Krell KSP-7B pre-amp, Krell KSA-80 power amp

    Output: Wilson Benesch Vector speakers, KLH Ultimate One Headphones

    Cables: Tellurium Q Ultra Black II RCA & Chord Epic 2 RCA, various speaker leads, & links


    I think I am nearing audio nirvana, but don’t tell anyone.

  9. #9
    Join Date: Nov 2011

    Location: Seaton, Devon, UK

    Posts: 13,240
    I'm Adrian.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by martinswimmer View Post
    This is very interesting.
    Recently I've been experimenting in a similar fashion and my findings are similar to yours.

    For the sake of keeping things simple, I've only been using a single turntable and a single tonearm. The phono stage is Valab LCR, that doesn't seem to allow for capacitance settings.
    The preamp is passive.

    The cartridges used were:

    MC
    Shelter 901 Mk3, Entre EC-1, Supex SDX-1000, Sony XL-55 Pro, Ortofon MC25FL

    MM & MI
    Shure Ultra 500, Technics EPC205 Mk3, Grado FT+ and AT-110

    I could grade them like you did in terms of various SQ parameters, but I found that their performance varied comparatively depending on the genre and the record itself.
    Also, how can one meaningfully compare all these very different cartridges without showing some sympathy for their compliance needs?

    ......

    My takeaway is that the price is not indicative of the SQ. You definitely seem to get more of a bang for money with vintage cartridges, but then there are issues with them potentially being worn out or with suspension issues.
    But perhaps cheaper buying a few of these past masters and selling them on if not good in your system.
    Hi Martin, it is interesting that others have similar findings, perhaps the MC arena is not all the panacea it is cracked up to be. You have quite a varied selection of cartridges there.

    I my case, in terms of compliance needs I presume you are talking about cartridge/arm compliance, in my case all of the MC cartridges I have work well in a mid range compliant arm, so I am reasonably comfortable they perform well in my set up. The MM Ortofon OM/DN165E is only 5gm but this is just inside what the Pro-Ject 10" Signature arm will work with, I checked it with the HiFi news test tracks and the resonance is better than I expected being at just above 8hz, so acceptable.

    I take your point on genre and individual records, but I think I would try and get to just two cartridges to cover all.

    I looked at the Shure Ultra 500 and it sells for quite a bit it seems.
    Listening is the act of aural discrimination and dissemination of sound, and accepting you get it wrong sometimes.

    Analog Inputs: Pro-Ject Signature 10 TT & arm, Benz Micro LP-S, Michel Cusis MC, Goldring 2500 and Ortofon Rondo Blue cartridges, Hitachi FT5500 mk2 Tuner

    Digital:- Marantz SA-KI Pearl CD player, RaspberryPi/HifiBerry Digi+ Pro, Buffalo NAS Drive

    Amplification:- AudioValve Sunilda phono stage, Krell KSP-7B pre-amp, Krell KSA-80 power amp

    Output: Wilson Benesch Vector speakers, KLH Ultimate One Headphones

    Cables: Tellurium Q Ultra Black II RCA & Chord Epic 2 RCA, various speaker leads, & links


    I think I am nearing audio nirvana, but don’t tell anyone.

  10. #10
    Join Date: May 2012

    Location: Toulouse, France

    Posts: 6,562
    I'm Kevin.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AJSki2fly View Post
    I have found that the Ortofon cartridges can be quite picking on setup, particularly VTA, so having an TT/ARM set up that allows you to dial it in to the sweet spot I think is quite important. I have found the Micro Benz to be similar in that respect as well. I will have to try and have a listen to a 2m Black and see if it is for more or not, so hard to do with cartridges though.
    My FX-1200 has VTA adjustable on the fly, easy to dial in to the sweet spot. It is just as awkward as my other Shibata tipped cartridges to dial in.
    Kevin

    Too busy enjoying the music....

    European loan coordinator for Graham Slee HiFi system components..

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