Johns Hopkins Medical Centre - World Coronavirus infection Map by Country.

[Marco]

Trumps quack Coronavirus Guru and in-house spreader of disinformation.
Guess the demands by the Trumpster got too much even for him.

This guy.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/10/17/p...rus/index.html

Ah, thanks! You're right into this stuff, aren't you?

Now that the election is over, personally I have little interest in Trump, but I do worry what the 'other lot' in charge now will get up to and what changes they'll make that could have a seriously negative and far-reaching impact on all of our lives.

As I've said before, and as the old saying goes, 'better the devil you know'...

Marco.

[Duckworp]

May I ask why you’re “very surprised”? Do you believe that as Hi-Fi enthusiasts we collectively shouldn’t have any opinions or thoughts on the current situation? Or are you very surprised that some opinions differ from yours?

I didn't know HiFi forums discussed things other than audio equipment. So I was surprised that it happens. I always look at the 'Blank Canvas', 'Digital Expressions' and 'The Artists Palette' area but never really looked beyond that. I go to forums for specialist discussion on a subject and didn't expect to find general chat. I also use the Audiogon and Roon forums and they don't have such things. However I just looked on Pink Fish and they do. Who knew? I have learned something.

You're hearing what she's saying but not computing all of it.

First, everyone goes to the hospital in fear for the life for covid because they're scared to death of it.... because they watch MSM.

No, at her Hospital the paramedics triage the Covid patients and only bring them in if the oxygen levels are sub-92. She says that there are a few walk-in A&E patients with covid but most of these are triaged and sent home as if they were well enough to make it to Hospital they probably aren't ill enough to be kept in.

What is MSM?

And a lot of those people are what would be yearly admission for flu etc but aren't being classified as such. Either way you've got increases from panic.

No she says these are definitely Covid as they are tested and are not sent to the Covid ward if they test negative. She says the Covid ward patients not on Oxygen make a cacophony of breathless breathing.

Then they're low staffed because they aren't operating normally. It's not the covid cases themselves that are the craziness. But as always anyone who works in a hospital is very dramatic 100% of the time.... believe me, I work with all of them all day. It's not fun, but it's not world ending.

There are structural staff shortages plus a lot of staff also have covid. They now have home-testing kits and test themselves twice a week. If they have sniffle but test negative they are encouraged to get to work as staffing is so low.

As far as "slows it down" , well does it? We have seen little evidence of that. In fact so far basically none. It appears like the virus hits somewhere initially where they know it's around and then you get the late responders (immune systems) coming in because they're in need of medical assistance. Then you lock down after the fact... When maybe already the majority have already had it.

[/QUOTE]

There is evidence this week: daily covid cases are dropping after the month of lockdown. Then remember that cases declined to next to nothing after the full-on March-May lockdown. There is absolutely no doubt that reducing person-to-person interactions in society reduces covid. The question is whether that reduction is worth the economic cost.

Respect to what you are saying, especially the inside information your daughter gives you, but you are totally ignoring the economic devastation lock down is inflicting on the world, now and the legacy it will leave.

There is no doubt that there is massive economic devastation. But imagine for a moment the alternative: scenes of hospital beds in corridors, scenes of heart attack and stroke emergency patients being turned away or treated in corridors, reports of people unable to get into hospital and dying at home whether from covid or another emergency. Given that the NHS cannot get the Nightingale Hospitals to operate due to lack of staff this is what it would be like. Even if you personally decide that this situation is human cost worth taking to save the economy, no government would ever want these images beamed around the country and the world. Labour and Tory would never allow it, and even the extremists like Iain Duncan Smith and Nigel Farage if in power would find it hard to be the enablers of this situation.

The fact that we are not at that situation is because the economy is devastated. But if you were in power would you really sanction such a medical disaster?

I don't think anyone is doubting how hard it is in hospitals at this time of year, but its the same every year, people get ill more in the cold weather, Flu has been killing people for more than a thousand years that we know of, and has been documented,

My daughter's hospital is just about coping because of the actions taken by the government to contain the spread of the disease. Without these lockdown actions they would be overrun as I described above. OK, one cannot 'prove' that they would be in this state but anyone with a basic understanding of graphs and growth curves would be able to see that there would be substantially more cases if society was operating as normal.

as for your remark about 5G spreading Covid, was that meant as a joke ? certain types of Radio frequencies, and EMF have been known at least as far back as the 1970's to have a detrimental affect on the immune system, plenty of reading out there, if anyone care's to research it properly, here's a head start https://atmosure.com/blogs/stories/5g-and-coronavirus, unfortunetly there are two main types of people, those who will, and need to follow without question, and those who are willing to question and only follow if the information available stacks up, more often than not, a middle ground can be found.

Man never went to the moon, the CIA were responsible for 9/11 and AIDS, aircraft trails contain biological agents, covid was released by china against the west, flat-earthers, new wrld order believers, Holocost deniers, bill gates being the evil one with his vaccines, 5G spreads covid...they are all generally considered crazy conspiracy theories. Obviously not by the people who believe them though. The great thing and the worse thing about a conspiracy theory is you can't be proved wrong nor right. But the great conspiracy theorists such as David Icke do come across as a little strange, so the wider public have tended to be rightfully wary of these theories. However the problem with social media is that a lot of people are now actually believing them on a scale not seen before.

[Marco]

Hi Peter,

Thanks for your valued insight into the situation prevailing within the hospital in question, based on others and your real experiences. I'd have no desire to question it, as I'm sure it's true, although simply to add that I've heard conflicting accounts from others I know of who work in the NHS, but let's not dwell on that for the moment, as clearly the picture varies in different hospitals.

The great thing and the worse thing about a conspiracy theory is you can't be proved wrong nor right.

Well, in theory you could, with enough credible evidence stacked up for or against the 'conspiracy theory' in question. What you've got to guard against though, and unfortunately there's been much evidence of this throughout the thread, is that my or your 'credible evidence', in that respect, isn't considered as the sole or definitive one

But the great conspiracy theorists such as David Icke do come across as a little strange, so the wider public have tended to be rightfully wary of these theories. However the problem with social media is that a lot of people are now actually believing them on a scale not seen before.

Being wary or suspicious of *anything* is always a healthy approach, and that includes the views of Icke or anyone else, as much as forms of political propaganda, half-truths or blatant lies perpetrated by the government.

Therefore, when it comes to believing in or rubbishing 'conspiracy theories', one should be equally cautious of guarding against it simply qualifying as that which best supports our political bias or belief system, as one can too often get caught up in that, or what we consider as too scary to contemplate, thus be blinded to the truth.

In that respect, for me it's never a bad thing to challenge the accepted norm/popular view, or critically examine (some) of such 'conspiracy theories', just in case there's more to it than that, rather than simply dismiss them out of hand. That's certainly always been my approach, and also one which has proved to be rewarding. It's called being (genuinely) open-minded.

Anyway, long-live free thinking and those unafraid or unashamed of being considered as a 'heretic'!

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

One of the main reasons i suspect people are looking into alternative answers as to what is actualy going on at the moment is IMO down to the way the government and its advisers have handled the whole situation from the start, as for your view on 5G, well i guess for what ever your reason you didnt want to do as i sugested, which was do your own research on the matter, and instead decided to cover it as just another conspiracy, and of course you are entitled to your opinion, as long as you make it clear that it is just that, and i for one will have no problem with that

I didn't know HiFi forums discussed things other than audio equipment. So I was surprised that it happens. I always look at the 'Blank Canvas', 'Digital Expressions' and 'The Artists Palette' area but never really looked beyond that. I go to forums for specialist discussion on a subject and didn't expect to find general chat. I also use the Audiogon and Roon forums and they don't have such things. However I just looked on Pink Fish and they do. Who knew? I have learned something.

No, at her Hospital the paramedics triage the Covid patients and only bring them in if the oxygen levels are sub-92. She says that there are a few walk-in A&E patients with covid but most of these are triaged and sent home as if they were well enough to make it to Hospital they probably aren't ill enough to be kept in.

What is MSM?

No she says these are definitely Covid as they are tested and are not sent to the Covid ward if they test negative. She says the Covid ward patients not on Oxygen make a cacophony of breathless breathing.

There are structural staff shortages plus a lot of staff also have covid. They now have home-testing kits and test themselves twice a week. If they have sniffle but test negative they are encouraged to get to work as staffing is so low.

There is evidence this week: daily covid cases are dropping after the month of lockdown. Then remember that cases declined to next to nothing after the full-on March-May lockdown. There is absolutely no doubt that reducing person-to-person interactions in society reduces covid. The question is whether that reduction is worth the economic cost.

There is no doubt that there is massive economic devastation. But imagine for a moment the alternative: scenes of hospital beds in corridors, scenes of heart attack and stroke emergency patients being turned away or treated in corridors, reports of people unable to get into hospital and dying at home whether from covid or another emergency. Given that the NHS cannot get the Nightingale Hospitals to operate due to lack of staff this is what it would be like. Even if you personally decide that this situation is human cost worth taking to save the economy, no government would ever want these images beamed around the country and the world. Labour and Tory would never allow it, and even the extremists like Iain Duncan Smith and Nigel Farage if in power would find it hard to be the enablers of this situation.

The fact that we are not at that situation is because the economy is devastated. But if you were in power would you really sanction such a medical disaster?

My daughter's hospital is just about coping because of the actions taken by the government to contain the spread of the disease. Without these lockdown actions they would be overrun as I described above. OK, one cannot 'prove' that they would be in this state but anyone with a basic understanding of graphs and growth curves would be able to see that there would be substantially more cases if society was operating as normal.

Man never went to the moon, the CIA were responsible for 9/11 and AIDS, aircraft trails contain biological agents, covid was released by china against the west, flat-earthers, new wrld order believers, Holocost deniers, bill gates being the evil one with his vaccines, 5G spreads covid...they are all generally considered crazy conspiracy theories. Obviously not by the people who believe them though. The great thing and the worse thing about a conspiracy theory is you can't be proved wrong nor right. But the great conspiracy theorists such as David Icke do come across as a little strange, so the wider public have tended to be rightfully wary of these theories. However the problem with social media is that a lot of people are now actually believing them on a scale not seen before.

[Marco]

One of the main reasons i suspect people are looking into alternative answers as to what is actualy going on at the moment is IMO down to the way the government and its advisers have handled the whole situation from the start...

Hear, hear!! Their lack of transparency or honesty from the beginning, plus woeful double-standards, is what breeds suspicion, resentment and a lack of trust - and also so-called 'conspiracy theories'!

Marco.

[Pigmy Pony]

Very good! But TBH, it's not really funny.

Why should robustly expressed contrary views to the accepted norm be seen as 'argumentative'? Must those of us who disagree with others or you, or even the majority of the population, simply shut up and think the same, simply for a 'quiet life'?

Because that's the feeling I'm getting here from some people, and it stinks!

Worse, there seems to be an increasing and underlying resentment towards anyone who dares criticise or question the safety of the forthcoming vaccines, and a desire to silence them, simply because they dislike a) their choice being criticised and feel uneasy about it, b) anyone who's fortunate enough not to feel the NEED for a vaccine, if instead they consider that their immune system itself is able to cope - essentially an attitude of 'well if I'm having it, you're gonna have it, too!'

And I simply *will NOT* have that here. Those wishing to take the vaccine have others and my blessing, and our sincere wishes that it will work out well. However, at the same time we have to be allowed to express our concerns if we feel they're warranted, without being subjected to accusations of argumentativeness or ruffling feathers for the sake of it, because I can assure you that's not the case.

Therefore, going forward, how I'm insisting on this thread being conducted, is a) if you have nothing constructive to say, then say nothing [and such posts will be removed without further notice], and instead contribute to other discussions on the forum. Most importantly, b):

If you can't handle opposing views expressed in a way that casts doubt on what you alternatively believe, or worse can't help but feel jealousy or resentfulness towards someone who's healthier than you, and so doesn't feel pressurised into having a vaccine, then also stay away from this discussion, as that's wrong on so many levels.

Learn to accept that some people will always think differently, not just on this matter, but many other important and controversial subjects, and allow them to do that without making them feel that they have to comply with your values or thought processes, simply to 'keep the peace' or engage in a group hug.

That's fundamentally not how we do things on AoS, and never will. Polite or reasonable free-thinking, controversial or otherwise, expressed frankly and honestly, will always be welcomed not gagged!

And btw, although I've quoted you here, Steve, the above is not solely aimed at you. It's for the benefit of the whole of the membership

Marco.

Sorry buddy, it was not my intention to cause offence - I wasn't attempting to disparage your views on vaccines (or anything else)! I have said before that I respect people's right to refuse it. 'Twas was merely an attempt to send up your tendency to argue a point to the nth degree, until the other person gives up No more than that. I'll be a bit more careful in future when I'm thinking of taking the mickey.

As with most things, I really don't care - I'm happy for people to wind me up, indeed I'm my own biggest victim. I guess not everyone thinks the same way.

BTW thanks for the new avatar - did I mention (twice) how much I like it?

[Duckworp]

Hi Peter,

Well, in theory you could, with enough credible evidence weighed up for or against the 'conspiracy theory' in question. What you've got to guard against though, and unfortunately there's been much evidence of this throughout the thread, is that my or your 'credible evidence', in that respect, isn't considered as the sole or definitive one

Being wary or suspicious of *anything* is always a healthy approach, and that includes the views of Icke, or anyone else, as much as forms of political propaganda, half-truths or blatant lies perpetrated by the government.

Therefore, when it comes to 'conspiracy theories' one should be equally cautious of guarding against such simply qualifying as that which best appeases our political bias or belief system, as one can too often get caught up in that, or what we consider as too scary to contemplate, thus be blinded to the truth.

In that respect, for me it's never a bad thing to challenge the accepted norm/popular view, or critically examine (some) of such 'conspiracy theories', just in case there's more to it than that, rather than simply dismiss them out of hand. That's certainly always been my approach, and also one which has proved to be rewarding. It's called being (genuinely) open-minded.

Anyway, long-live free thinking and those unafraid or unashamed of being considered as a 'heretic'!

Marco.

My criteria for testing many theories is firstly to question the why and then the evidence. So the "why" on why the NASA moon landings might be fabricated would be perfectly reasonable as the US may have not developed the tech but would not have wanted to lose face by not being able to get to the moon by the end of the 60s as Kennedy promised. But the evidence? It is sketchy at best but most of all there is no way the thousands of NASA scientists could have faked it without any of them coming clean once over the decades since. It's a bit like in HiFi the people who get on their high horse and claim cables absolutely cannot make a difference. They seem to imply that manufacturers, retailers, and hifi journalists and consumers who report a difference are all in this together in some conspiracy. It is nonsense: if this were the case over the decades one of these people in retirement would have come out the woodwork and admitted it was all a hoax.

It is good to question the norm but I do feel that most conspiracy theories fall over on the most basic of questions. Hitler proved, if proof were needed, that to control a nation you don't actually need to hide your controlling HQ city under Denver Airport (I believe that is where one of the evil empires currently base themselves according to one theory), but it can be done through completely legal means, with a little bit of force behind it. This is the scary truth and Belarus recently and the Balkans in the 90s show it can still happen in a transparent and scary way quite close to home.

[Marco]

Sorry buddy, it was not my intention to cause offence - I wasn't attempting to disparage your views on vaccines (or anything else)! I have said before that I respect people's right to refuse it.

No problem, apology accepted. What happened was largely due to the limitations of the written word, as I'm sure we could've had the same conversation face to face, and not had that misunderstanding

'Twas was merely an attempt to send up your tendency to argue a point to the nth degree, until the other person gives up... No more than that. I'll be a bit more careful in future when I'm thinking of taking the mickey.

As you know full well, I'm *always* up for a bit of banter and am equally able to have the mickey taken, as I am returning the compliment!

However, as mentioned, with the limitations of the written word, sometimes what was intended as mickey taking gets misconstrued. Therefore, a little extra care is needed to ensure that the recipient takes the piss-taking in the right way.

This is the important bit, though... Please understand that my 'arguing a point to the nth degree' is not out of any desire to 'win' an argument at all costs [I don't mind being wrong and frequently am], but rather simply to ensure that I'm not being misunderstood or misinterpreted (as that *really* annoys me), and therefore that what I've written has both been read AND properly understood!

I also hate 'loose ends', so if I think that something needs 'tying up', I'll tackle it, rather than leaving it 'dangling' (I know you feel the same about your troublesome little wiener)

Also, just returning briefly to vaccines, we should all make more of an effort not to take umbrage with or be resentful towards the decisions of others in that respect, or be judgemental of them, as it's both inconsiderate and selfish, as well as arrogant.

I can honestly say, hand on heart, that if I were in the highest at risk category for Covid, whilst I'd like as many folks as possible to be vaccinated, I wouldn't resent anyone who, based on their judgment criteria and level or risk assessment, decided against having one. I would RESPECT their decision and civil right to make that choice, in what is supposedly a free country.

THAT is the attitude I want to see here from everyone, and indeed will be striving to ensure that's the case.

BTW thanks for the new avatar - did I mention (twice) how much I like it?

Shut it... You can SHOW me later, shweety, just HOW much you like it!



Marco.

[Folsom]

I think he knows better than anyone his own Daughter and what She’s saying my friend.

He has a perspective (vicariously through his Daughters real life experience) than many of us “Couch commanders” don’t.
You make a few good points about people in real world situations,

but you speak with some authority about what goes on in hospitals, do you work in the field?
Your taking a contrary point of view from what Peter is saying, and that’s based on his Dr daughters direct experience.

What do you base that on?

(not looking to pick a fight, just understand what seems a skewed point of view to me)

I work in health care and talk to a LOT OF PEOPLE around the country daily, all in hospitals or clinics attached to them.

[Filterlab]

I have many clients whom work at the NNUH nearby, all of them have said how bored they are from having nothing to do.

I took my girlfriend into one of their departments the other day, and the whole (massive) building had six patients in it for the whole day. Now, I do eight appointments a day and I'm a single, self-employed person. So six patients in a vast building full of staff doesn't sound like a much of a task to me.

Saying it how I see it.