Digital/Electronic Piano Advice

[dave2010]

MIDI tint Software, Its just a digital interface that uses a standard 5 Pin Din connector lead. However MIDI is not used much these days its USB.

Midi is used, it's just the connectors which are different. As you say most Midi interfaces now use USB or even wireless.
There are adapter units which will allow old style devices with the DIN plugs to connect to newer kit with USB or other interfaces.

Wireless (probably Bluetooth) can be OK, though some musicians say it introduces latency issues. Pro people who actually play live concerts seem to prefer real wires, as otherwise there are various reasons why wireless can fail or introduce problems. One issue is apparently electronic devices brought in by audience members. I suppose there could even be malicious interference sometimes, though I think mostly the problems are accidental, but nevertheless the pros like to avoid them and use wire.

[dave2010]

So, thanks again for all your advice - which I've completely ignored!

Just won this on eBay, which I think ticks the right boxes and at £200 is a stonking bargain, assuming it all works as it should...


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Casio-Cel...rdt=true&rt=nc

Collection only from Norfolk, but only just over an hour away. Hoping they'll be able to let us collect tomorrow afternoon - I'm decorating the "music room" today in readiness!

It'll be good to hear how this works out for you. We have an old Casio keyboard as well as pianos and a Yamaha keyboard - all fun - though the pianos need tuning.

Heard a concert recently though, with a Celviano piano - which I think is one of a Casio range. Really not good at all - didn't sound like a "proper" piano, and I don't know how the relationship with the pianist went. I didn't get the impression that the dynamics were right at all. With real pianos, if the player tries to play loud the sound close by can almost be deafening - indeed now I remember - it is very loud - I think the last time I was that close was to a piano being played by Barry Douglas. Also if the player plays softly the sound is quite quiet. Not with that Celviano piano, as far as I could tell - and we were only a few feet away from it. It had a sort of boomy sound too - not piano like.

That doesn't mean that instruments like that are terrible, they may have a role, but I felt it was disappointing. Definitely not a concert instrument.

[Alex_UK]

Thanks Dave. I know one thing, it's bloody heavy!

Got it installed upstairs late yesterday afternoon and daughter is over the moon with it compared to what she had. Her piano teacher has one very similar, part of the reason we went for a Casio, and yes this one is a Celviano (Celviano is the name of their electronic piano range, but there are many different models) but I think it sounds pretty realistic. I've had a little tinkle and it feels very piano like, you can get really soft and really hard notes out of it. I'm not too worried as she won't be doing any concerts just yet!

I've taken the view it is better to spend £200 on something half reasonable as she may still not stick with it, I am sure I could sell it again in a year's time and not lose any money. There's hardly a mark on it, and everything seems to work as it should.

If she keeps up the work and needs something better then fine, we'll sort it for her then. It had the desired effect this morning though - first time she has ever got up early and woken the rest of the house practising!

[dave2010]

Hi Alex,

I'm revisiting this - as there's yet another birthday coming up. Which model of Casio/Celviano did you get? [The eBay link has now "decayed" ...]

Last year I bought a Casio PX-S1000 as a birthday present - and it's pretty good and neat. However I thought it was rather quiet - though when I played it briefly - it gave a louder sound if "hit" more forcefully. Obviously rather than buy something more expensive to get a louder sound, it would be possible to take an output out to a hi-fi system, or just use studio monitors. For most purposes the PX-S1000 seems a great instrument.

I'm also looking at various Yamaha models - and the P125 seems to be very similar to the Casio. Some people say they're better made - but I just don't really know. We have had cheap electronic keyboards from both Yamaha and Casio. Obviously Yamaha also make real acoustic pianos, so maybe those keyboards are better.

I'd be interested to know if anyone else has views on this kind of instrument - typically an electronic piano costing under £1000 with a touch sensitive keyboard. Doesn't necessarily have to be either Casio or Yamaha, though a Roland model I liked was, similar to yours, very heavy. Stage performers seem to like slightly different models - such as the Casio PX-S3000 - because of the buttons which light up and the screen, though in terms of the overall sound there's really not much to choose, and the Midi interfaces on these seem very similar.

Somewhat different beasts are keyboards such as the Native Instruments one, and the Hydrasynth synthesiser keyboard, which may have a greater emphasis on electronics. I quite fancy the Hydrasynth - but right now I'm looking at something more like a "real" piano - though a good Midi interface would be helpful.

I think I mentioned already that we do have acoustic pianos, but they're out of tune right now, and I'm also looking for something which may have a light touch and less likely to cause any repetitive strain injuries.

How did you get on with your piano after buying it?

[sessylU]

I might be of use here (secondary school music teacher, gigging musician)

The loudness thing you're talking about:

Most touch sensitive keyboards will have a velocity curve that can be edited (or they will have velocity profiles that can be set). This determines how sensitive the touch is and how much harder you need to play the key to get a louder sound. Might be worth a fiddle if you find that you really need to hammer to make it louder.

Most electric pianos will have some sort of output. I would not put mine anywhere near my hifi. I have a home studio and can I play through that (although that's rather cumbersome, being made up of an audio interface, a computer, then a set of monitors), although I'm much more likely to just use the built in speakers (unless I'm recording something and want to use a different piano sound than the one that comes on the piano). A more "real world" solution would be a keyboard amp. Although, to be honest, I'd be surprised if this was necessary for playing at "normal" (ie. not gigging) volumes.

I've always been impressed by Roland and Yamaha. A Yamaha Clavinova is pretty much ubiquitous in secondary school classrooms. As a gigging musician, I've always sworn by pretty much anything that Roland make. It nearly always does it's job well and it's nearly always indestructible (reliability is at least as important as sound quality when gigging, I reckon). Casio also make good gear. I currently have a Casio somethingorother (my wife's piano) at home which sounds decent, plays great and doesn't take up much room.

One distinction worth making is between stage pianos and other electric pianos. Stage pianos are designed for gigging musicians, will usually go an x-stand, will be lighter, will have smaller speakers, might have more options for hooking up to PA etc, and will probably have interfaces more tailored towards playing live (more lights, everything a bit less sleek or nice looking). Other electric pianos will usually sit on their own stands, with bigger speakers built in and will have interfaces that aren't going to look terrible in the corner of your living room.

https://www.thomann.de/blog/en/digit...o-vs-keyboard/

There is a whole world (bigger than that, galaxy?) of keyboard/synth instruments like the ones you mention. At that point, you're usually paying for a whole load of other considerations than feeling and sounding pianoey. That's a lot of fun, but it's nearly a different instrument. Almost everything with a keyboard on it these days will have USB midi. Even the cheap, cheap keyboards we use in classrooms can be hooked up to a computer for all sorts of synth craziness.

Dunno if this helps. Any questions, fire away.

[dave2010]

Loudness thing: I found one comparison video which showed a definite increase in apparent loudness if the Casio ambience/hall feature was enabled. I'm not sure if there's much else which can be done, though one review suggested that the Casio ought to be slightly louder, being an 8 Watt unit rather than a 7 Watt unit. In practice I'm not sure that difference is worth worrying about - it would come to a very small dB difference, and in any case would depend on the levels of distortion which would be acceptable.

I'm not sure why you wouldn't put your digital piano anywhere near a hifi system? Is it just an aesthetic or distance thing, or is there a reason not to do it?

I don't know much about keyboard amps. As you say, gigging is different. Some people want additional controls - some form of control wheel and extra buttons or pads, but that's starting to stray over into the realms of keyboard + DAWs.

I have linked cheaper keyboards - much earlier models - to computers and DAWs. Cheap keyboards just don't have the feel of a proper piano keyboard, but I believe the better digital keyboards - so called weighted ones - are much closer to "real" pianos, and apart from the extra weight have a degree of touch sensitivity.

Yamaha's models are claimed to have good samples taken from their own high end range of acoustic pianos, and indeed that would seem to explain what I think sounds like a weightier bass end - more like a Steinway - though that isn't necessarily a sound which every piano should have.

Right now it looks as though there really isn't too much to choose between the Casio PX-S1000 and the Yamaha p125. Both of those can be used with X stands for gigging, though that's not what we want, so we'll go with the home stands. Some of the more expensive models from both companies appear more solidly built, and are heavier - but right now we don't really need the extra weight - it's not as if we haven't already got pianos - but it would be nice to have a good digital one to practice on, which might have the benefit of a lighter touch than our grand and also be in tune. One of us seems to have a problem with hand injuries - possibly arthritis - so doesn't want a heavy touch at the moment - which spoils enjoyment considerably. Re tuning - a modest electronic piano could arguably "pay for itself" over a few years by reducing the costs of tuners and repairs - though yes - if I wanted to spend £70k or more I might look at a Fazioli - but my own playing would not justify that.

Agree absolutely about synths, and devices like the Hydrasynth being rather different instruments, though some people like to play with those, and some people like knob twiddling - for example deadmau5. Could be fun - though rather different from playing Mozart, Beethoven or even Shostakovich and Bartók. Yet another approach is to use a weighted Midi keyboard, with apps and computers. For example it's possible to use a whole range of keyboard sounds from Roland for not a lot on a yearly subscription, but then a keyboard amp - such as you mention - might be needed. I don't know much about those at all - please do elaborate. I suspect there's a whole range, and some venues might have ones to plug in - but since I'm never going to perform in that way that'll be irrelevant for me - though I would like to know - out of curiosity.

[sessylU]

Loudness thing: I found one comparison video which showed a definite increase in apparent loudness if the Casio ambience/hall feature was enabled. I'm not sure if there's much else which can be done, though one review suggested that the Casio ought to be slightly louder, being an 8 Watt unit rather than a 7 Watt unit. In practice I'm not sure that difference is worth worrying about - it would come to a very small dB difference, and in any case would depend on the levels of distortion which would be acceptable.

Curious. Presumably "ambience" and "hall" are reverb settings? I wonder if that also applies shifts the EQ?

I'm not sure why you wouldn't put your digital piano anywhere near a hifi system? Is it just an aesthetic or distance thing, or is there a reason not to do it?

Ah, sorry, I meant I wouldn't play my piano through my hifi. Too many memories of wrecking equipment as a teenager by plugging all the instruments into the wrong amps.

Both the Yamaha and the Casio look great. They also look like they would fit in well at home with the solid stands, and if needs be, could be gigged with with an x stand. I think I prefer the Yamaha, but I couldn't say why that is. Some sort of snobbery on my part, I'm not sure. My wife's Casio plays excellently.

Agree absolutely about synths, and devices like the Hydrasynth being rather different instruments, though some people like to play with those, and some people like knob twiddling - for example deadmau5. Could be fun - though rather different from playing Mozart, Beethoven or even Shostakovich and Bartók. Yet another approach is to use a weighted Midi keyboard, with apps and computers. For example it's possible to use a whole range of keyboard sounds from Roland for not a lot on a yearly subscription, but then a keyboard amp - such as you mention - might be needed. I don't know much about those at all - please do elaborate. I suspect there's a whole range, and some venues might have ones to plug in - but since I'm never going to perform in that way that'll be irrelevant for me - though I would like to know - out of curiosity.

At that point you are approaching using the keyboard as a midi controller rather than as a synthesiser or piano in and of itself. The onboard sounds cease to matter, as all the audio will be generated by the computer anyway. This will then be output into monitors or, in a live setting, the PA. Although I don't know anyone who uses keyboard amps these days. Buskers? Worship groups?

For my part, most of my keyboard/piano playing these days is with a Novation Impulse midi controller. It was cheap, has fancy things (lots of knobs and drum pads), and feels reasonably good to play (very good for the price). It does nothing by itself, but everything I do goes through my computer.

[dave2010]

Curious. Presumably "ambience" and "hall" are reverb settings? I wonder if that also applies shifts the EQ?

Ah, sorry, I meant I wouldn't play my piano through my hifi. Too many memories of wrecking equipment as a teenager by plugging all the instruments into the wrong amps.

Both the Yamaha and the Casio look great. They also look like they would fit in well at home with the solid stands, and if needs be, could be gigged with with an x stand. I think I prefer the Yamaha, but I couldn't say why that is. Some sort of snobbery on my part, I'm not sure. My wife's Casio plays excellently.

At that point you are approaching using the keyboard as a midi controller rather than as a synthesiser or piano in and of itself. The onboard sounds cease to matter, as all the audio will be generated by the computer anyway. This will then be output into monitors or, in a live setting, the PA. Although I don't know anyone who uses keyboard amps these days. Buskers? Worship groups?

For my part, most of my keyboard/piano playing these days is with a Novation Impulse midi controller. It was cheap, has fancy things (lots of knobs and drum pads), and feels reasonably good to play (very good for the price). It does nothing by itself, but everything I do goes through my computer.

Some interesting comments there.

Comparing the Yamaha p125 with the Casio model - there really isn't too much between them. Both seem to have ways of changing parameters based on using the piano keys and a chart - though some of the characteristics of the Yamaha can be selected with a set of buttons. The Casio is slightly slimmer - front to back, so can fit into small spaces. Both are roughly the same weight, though I think the Yamaha keyboard is slightly deeper - top to bottom - though that wouldn't matter much if the keyboard stand for home use is used. Even the Yamaha is small enough to be compact in a domestic environment, rather than some keyboards which might be used for gigs which may have larger displays and screens.

Years ago - in fact many years ago - I visited a home which had a Yamaha grand piano - with the recording and replay features available at the time. That was clearly very good. It was basically an acoustic piano with extra features - and cost a fortune. I think Yamaha have continued to make instruments which function as very good acoustic instruments, but have also made electronic ones with sound samples from some of their high end acoustic models.

I didn't know much about gig loudspeakers - though studio monitors would seem to be a much better option nowadays.
I also didn't know much about "worship music" until not so long ago, when I discovered that it seems to be a big thing in some parts of the USA. There is also software which seems largely (now) to have been picked up by US church groups - such as Apple's Mainstage.

Using computers plus a keyboard as a midi controller often needs configuring, and the keyboards may have extra controller wheels (pitch bend, etc) and pads, but for most pianists those features really aren't needed. Some people who do a lot of gigs may find them helpful though, and some people may play in venues where such kit is either provided or expected - e.g cruise ships.

[sessylU]

I suppose the best advice is to go with the one that feels best, but it's not like you can visit a showroom at the minute. I suspect the Casio being slimmer might have an adverse impact on the keybed and the action, but that's just a hunch. Are there any videos/articles that compare the two?

[dave2010]

I suppose the best advice is to go with the one that feels best, but it's not like you can visit a showroom at the minute. I suspect the Casio being slimmer might have an adverse impact on the keybed and the action, but that's just a hunch. Are there any videos/articles that compare the two?

There are indeed videos to compare those two digital pianos, but as you suggest ideally it would be great to go and try those models in a store - but that's something which is practically impossible these days.

People who want a piano to help them get through these troubled times will probably just have to take a punt, and hope that whichever one they choose is good enough for them - at least for the time being.

Some shops may be willing to take digital pianos in exchange for a different model in the future, though there will almost inevitably be some loss of value. However it is possible that many people will find that they do learn new skills and develop awareness of options by using one or other of these instruments, which may be preferable to doing nothing for an extended period.