+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 22

Thread: Moving coil experiment

  1. #11
    Join Date: Apr 2011

    Location: London

    Posts: 4,419
    I'm Robert.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Clive197 View Post
    Stick to Moving Magnate (MM) cartridge’s. Most will work very well with an SME and will have greater bang for your buck over a budget MC.
    If you can find a low hrs Ortofon ML25 then you will be well on your way. If a little more money is available then Ortofon 2M Black would be my recommendation, with its Shibata stylus you will be very close to MC sound in the £300-600 price range.
    +1

    The amount of times I've recommended, no highly recommended the 2MB, I must sound like a broke record, but hey ho ! I'll always share and spread the news

    The 2MB opened my eyes to what can be achieved in hifi, up until that point i wasnt close, a properly set up 2M Black is a superb and classy mm, and yes it does have mc like traits, which reviews often express.

    If I were you, rather than go through the hassle / conundrum of how to get the best out of an mc - which SUT ? / headamp ? and all the rest of it, I highly recommend you try and bag an Ortofon 2M Black.

    IMO, Every mm user should experience an Ortofon 2M Black before even contemplating the mc route. I did and boy am I glad I did - an invaluable education in that respect, high end carts, what they bring to the table and so on.

    Make no mistake the 2MB is a high end cart.

    I remember when it launched (around 2011/12 ? Blimey cant believe it's been that long ), some said £460 was crazy money to spend at the time on an mm (nearer £500 these days).

    Lets put it this way, I was so impressed with the 2MB that I then went on to the the other Ortofon Shibatas up the range which was Quintet Black and Cadenza Black.

    The Cadenza was £1850 for a long time (I didnt pay anywhere near that as I bagged a used bargain) - Does the Cadenza Black sound £1350 'better' than the 2M Black mm ? No! and that's another thing the 2MB experience taught me, In hifi and mc's are no exception, there comes a point of quality where improvements become incremental / small in comparison to the spend / price hike for small level of said improvement, it's just how it is in this game.

    Lastly, for now Everything is a compromise ie: no such thing as a free meal ticket. Been said numerous times here by me and others - The 2MB will require meticulous / accurate attention to setup AND in particular vta adjustment as the final sweet spot nailer, due to it's stylus profile/shape.

    If you havnt got easy/smooth vta adjust then it'll be hard.

    If it's set up sweet spot isnt right, then it wont sound great/right, you wont know what the fuss is about. Hit it and you'll be grinning from ear to ear, only wanting to play album after album after album .....
    My System:
    Amplification - Sansui AU-alpha 707 DR
    Turntable - Technics SP10 MK2-Technics EPA-250 Tonearm-Yannis Tome 423.5Plus tonearm cable-Eichmann KLEI Absolute Harmony plugs.
    Ortofon Cadenza Black moving coil cartridge-Fritz Gyger S re-tip. Panzerholz plinth.

    CDP - Pioneer PD-91
    Speakers - Spendor D7 on Soundcare SuperSpikes
    QED Silver Spiral speaker cable-airloc banana plugs
    Mains - Ultra Pure silver plated un-switched socket-Missing link EPS 500 silver plated plugs-Hi-Fi Tuning gold plated silver ceramic 13 amp fuses

  2. #12
    Join Date: Nov 2011

    Location: Seaton, Devon, UK

    Posts: 13,240
    I'm Adrian.

    Default

    I completely agree with Robbie, I have had a couple of good MM's in the past and when I went back to vinyl initially I had a Dual 504 with Ortofon OM5E MM and as most know they sounded pretty good for the cost. I then purchased a Pro-Ject Xperience II with Ortofon Rondo Blue MC and a Cambridge Azur 640P MC phono stage. There was an improvement basically a bit more detail and bass was improved.

    But was it the cartridge or the better TT that gave most of the improvement, to be honest I cannot say for certain, but what I have subsequently tried is the OM5E in a better arm and on another TT and found it to perform surprisingly well, yes the Rondo Blue does give more detail, and a slightly better soundstage, but remember I am comparing £50 MM cartridge with a £600 MC cartridge, a differential factor of 12 times the cost, so is it 12 times better, straight answer NO, and NO again. The improvement was probably only in the order of 10-15%. Since then I have moved onto two other cartridges a Michell Cusis (Micro Benz Wood SL in another body) and currently a Micro Benz LP-S. Each were an improvement, the Cusis/Wood cost about twice the cost of the Rondo Blue, and this gave about 3-5% improvement. The LP-S is a pricey cartridge, I would say that the improvement in detail, sound stage, and realism is again only about 5% better than the Wood SL, but it costs 3 times the Wood SL. I have recently put the Rondo Blue onto an ebony head shell and fitted it to my Pro-Ject Signature 10, interestingly after spending sometime finding the VTA sweet spot it actually performs very well, so much so that I could sit an enjoy listening with it.

    So in summary as Robbie points you can pay out lots of money and only get small improvements, IMO the key is to find the best performer for the money you can afford and which works well with your set up.
    Listening is the act of aural discrimination and dissemination of sound, and accepting you get it wrong sometimes.

    Analog Inputs: Pro-Ject Signature 10 TT & arm, Benz Micro LP-S, Michel Cusis MC, Goldring 2500 and Ortofon Rondo Blue cartridges, Hitachi FT5500 mk2 Tuner

    Digital:- Marantz SA-KI Pearl CD player, RaspberryPi/HifiBerry Digi+ Pro, Buffalo NAS Drive

    Amplification:- AudioValve Sunilda phono stage, Krell KSP-7B pre-amp, Krell KSA-80 power amp

    Output: Wilson Benesch Vector speakers, KLH Ultimate One Headphones

    Cables: Tellurium Q Ultra Black II RCA & Chord Epic 2 RCA, various speaker leads, & links


    I think I am nearing audio nirvana, but don’t tell anyone.

  3. #13
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 31,846
    I'm openingabottleofwine.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by topoxforddoc View Post
    If your SME 3009 Imp has a detachable head shell, the tonearm effective mass 9.5g. You would need a medium to high compliance cartridge to work well in it to minimise low freq resonance on warps. Some of the Audio Technica And older Ortofon MC carts light work in the SME. The Denons will have far too low compliance to work well.
    There is nothing to stop one either using a heavy headshell (such as one of the Fidelity Research designs), or keeping the SME S2 shell and adding mass to it via a lead shim or a brass weight. The only problem might be if the increased mass of the cartridge/headshell exceeds the counterbalance range of the SME 3009(improved) when fitted with the standard counterweight. Heavier counterweights were available, but are now difficult to source and will be expensive.

    If you wish to use the Denon 103 MC cartridge, one of the best SUTs to use is the Haufe T-7883. Others recommend Denon's own AU320 SUT, as well as the Fidelity Research FRT3. https://theartofsound.net/forum/arch...p/t-55810.html
    Barry

  4. #14
    Join Date: Feb 2013

    Location: W Lothian

    Posts: 99,005
    I'm Grant.

    Default

    You can add a magnetic weight to the counterweight to balance it out. I have done this for years. Weights or magnets the correct diameter are available. One of members gave me mine. It looks perfect as it's shiny like main weight.
    The magnet does not affect the mc cartridge.
    Regards,
    Grant .... ؠ ......Don't be such a big girl's blouse

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: democracy simply-doesn't-work
    .... ..... ...... ...... ................... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....
    FIIO K7 BT, M11 PLUS, BTR7, KA5 - OPPO BDP-103D - PANASONIC UB450 - PANASONIC 4K ULTRA HD TV - PIXEL 6 - AVANTREE LR BLUETOOTH - 2* X600 SOUNDCORE - HEADPHONES INCLUDE, FIIO, NURAPHONES', FOCAL, OPPO, BOSE, CAMBRIDGE, BOWER & WILKINS, DEVIALET, MARSHALL, SONY, MITCHELL & JOHNSTON - 2*ZBOOK'S- MERCURY BD ROM, ROON, QOBUZ, TIDAL, PLEX, CYBERLINK, JRIVER - MULTI HDD'S -

    Oh my god! There's nothing wrong with the bidet is there?

    “Nothing discloses real character like the use of power. It is easy for the weak to be gentle. Most people can bear adversity. But if you wish to know what a man really is, give him power. This is the supreme test. It is the glory of Lincoln that, having almost absolute power, he never abused it, except on the side of mercy".

    “You see these dictators on their pedestals, surrounded by the bayonets of their soldiers and the truncheons of their police ... yet in their hearts there is unspoken fear. They are afraid of words and thoughts: words spoken abroad, thoughts stirring at home -- all the more powerful because forbidden -- terrify them. A little mouse of thought appears in the room, and even the mightiest potentates are thrown into panic.”

    "You don't have free will. You have the appearance of free will.”

    “There's a war out there, old friend. A world war. And it's not about who's got the most bullets. It's about who controls the information. What we see and hear, how we work, what we think... it's all about the information!”


    ***SMILE, BE HAPPY***

  5. #15
    Join Date: Mar 2014

    Location: KY - Scotland

    Posts: 5,465
    I'm Mike.

    Default

    Just advertised one of my Denon 103Rs if your interested.

  6. #16
    Join Date: Nov 2010

    Location: Chorley, Lancs

    Posts: 2,734
    I'm Mike.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by paulf-2007 View Post
    A good mc phono stage will be very expensive or not very good.

    Bollocks!! i use a Firebottle OTP3 it cost me £150 2nd hand and i'm very happy with it, a good MC phono stage doesn't have to cost the earth, however it does need synergy with the cart you're parring it with.


    As the late Colonel Sanders once said
    "I'm too drunk to taste this chicken!!"

  7. #17
    Join Date: Feb 2008

    Location: Canaries

    Posts: 193

    Default

    FWIW My Esco Paratrace Troika has been sleeping in my odds and sods drawer ever since I retrieved my old A&RP77 from a similar fate and sent it off to get a Hyper Elliptical retip. In the same arm (Ittok LVIII) It is just more "real" than my Troika ever sounded to me into my souped up Purseound P10 valve phono. Please note I have never heard an original new Troika but considering people used to say, when it was the Linn tops, it was a gutsy, full-bodied sound then my A&RP77 sounds just that so I must have been doing something wrong through my highly tuned Hagerman/Salas Piccolo step-up.
    Moral of this boring tale : Don´t write off MMs as inferior - it just ain´t so.

  8. #18
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Norwich

    Posts: 1,064
    I'm Mike.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by topoxforddoc View Post
    If your SME 3009 Imp has a detachable head shell, the tonearm effective mass 9.5g. You would need a medium to high compliance cartridge to work well in it to minimise low freq resonance on warps. Some of the Audio Technica And older Ortofon MC carts light work in the SME. The Denons will have far too low compliance to work well.
    This. I don't offhand know of any m/coils to match the compliance of magnets, though having used a K Black and Urushi in my SME Five, I can attest to a decent, if not potentially maximising s.q. (later realised in 12" heavier mass arms). The Hana, by all accounts, is highly popular at that lower end, but again, unless you're going to reasonably match the arm (without add-ons) and phono stage, stick to magnets.

    I have an Ortofon VMS20E mk. 2 on my 14g (ish) 12" unipivot and I and others are amazed when I compare it to my Trans. Proteus on 12" gimbal. There really shouldn't be that small an increment considering the incompatibility of my pairing and the cost difference. I never play it, though, so that extra involvement and transparency of the Proteus is the draw every time.

    There are quite a few good m.magnets around; don't conflate the different demands and properties of the two cart. formats.

  9. #19
    Join Date: Jun 2020

    Location: Vancouver Island

    Posts: 18
    I'm Kenji.

    Default

    There are decent, very affordable head amps, like my Harmonious Audio (yikes, don't judge it on the embarrassing name) MC head amp (MCA-1). Very easy way to get into MC carts. Provided you are happy with your Graham Slee.

    I used it in my bedroom system, with a Thorens TD160, Benz Micro MC cart, and NAD 3020, but am now enjoying a vintage Empire 2000E. I'd sell it for cheap.

  10. #20
    Join Date: Jun 2020

    Location: Vancouver Island

    Posts: 18
    I'm Kenji.

    Default

    There are decent, very affordable head amps, like my Harmonious Audio (yikes, don't judge it on the embarrassing name) MC head amp (MCA-1). Very easy way to get into MC carts. Provided you are happy with your Graham Slee.

    I used it in my bedroom system, with a Thorens TD160, Benz Micro MC cart, and NAD 3020, but am now enjoying a vintage Empire 2000E. Probably sell it for cheap, now that it's sitting idle (as good as it is, it's no comparison to my Benz Micro PP-1 MC preamp).

+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •