Boris big win.

[Landloper]

We'll agree to disagree on some of your other points, John, save the historical facts. However, on this we are in FULL agreement:



...and they shouldn't have been 'united' in the first place, as Scotland has never been treated, fairly and squarely, as England's equal. Instead, it's forever been ruled by Westminster and a politically London-centric bias,- and which has always irked the majority of the Scots (Welsh and Irish), whether they care to admit it or not.

Equality , as part of the union, is what Scotland and its people have always wanted. Now, they can go one better, and be independent and in control of their own destiny - and we can all get on with looking after our own best interests and those of the country we live in, rather than kidding ourselves on that Westminster is ultimately looking after the best interests of anyone in the UK but England.

Marco [considers himself as Scottish, first and foremost, before British, and so will always have a pro-Scotland mentality].

Here's another one I think we may angree on: Neither of us wants to be ruled from Westmonster. I'd add that

I don't want to be ruled by anyone, from anywhere.

I want a direct democracy instead, where each citizen has the right to take part in and vote on what is only now decided on by politicians. In other words devolution to citizen level.

As to the original union of Scotland and England, no political union is ever between equal partners for each participant hopes for an advantage over the other, or at least to be primus inter pares.

I do hope that B.Johnson will think again and do the decent thing, because as N.Sturgeon said this morning, the issue is not going to go away just because he refuses another referedum. I would urge a bold stroke on her part, namely calling Westmonster's bluff by holding a referendum and acting on the result without reference to Westmonster.

I belive the union has run its course.

[mikeyb]

[Ali Tait]

[Stratmangler]

Give it rest, unless you have something more constructive to say. The smiley at the ends adds no notion of your comment being tongue-in-cheek.

Marco.

It might have been tongue in cheek.
I'm deadly serious.

[Marco]

Well you're deadly wrong. Anyway, enough. You've made your point, so from now on, please stick to discussing the thread topic or refrain from commenting.

Marco.

[Marco]

Double

Marco.

P.S John, I'll reply to your spot-on posts later

[Landloper]

The NHS has never been free. Taxpayers fund the NHS. Services free at the point of use stil lhave to be paid for by the nation.

[Gaz]

Leaving the EU

When I was doing my apprenticeship in the early 80s one of my college lecturers put the best case I've heard in favour of the EU: That if we have multinational companies we need multinational unions of countries to stop them playing one country off against the other. And I see it all too clearly now with the likes of Apple, Amazon, Facebook and Google off-shoring to avoid paying tax. I only see the EU working with some effectiveness to stop this.

Since then I've seen other benefits, from freedom of trade to freedom of movement - I like being able to live or work anywhere in the EU, and hate the fact I'm having that freedom taken away from me.

Saying that, I don't think it is going to be then end of the world leaving the EU. I think it's a mistake, in my opinion, but the country will manage. However, as we have already learnt, the line that leaving would be easy was ignorant wishful thinking. The process is complicated - we have all sorts of relationships that need to be unpicked, from obvious ones like the trade agreement to things like policing cooperation to collaboration on space exploration. Things like the loss access to centralised trading standards checking, means the U.K. will have to replace those services with U.K. only facilities and setting that up takes time and money.

The big lie was that other countries will be falling over themselves to trade with us and that we would find it easy to get better deals than we had via the EU.

Returning to freedom of movement. I don't think most people's dislike of this is due to racism or zenophobia. I think the problem is not that there are immigrants here, but rather the perception that they get a better deal than native Brits. That they jump the benefits and housing lists unfairly. That they get benefit Brits don't. If those worries/issues were addressed, and the benefits to Brits of having freedom of movement was highlighted, that less people would be against it. Even simple things like properly monitoring the immigration numbers would be good.

So as you can see, I think leaving the EU is a mistake, is going to take a lot of work, but it can be done.

Austerity

Far more concerning to me is what the Conservatives have done to the welfare state and justice system. The huge cuts in funding have been disastrous. We now live in a country where working families are forced to use food banks!

I do voluntary work with the Ambulance Service. I see regularly the effects of ambulances having to queue at A&Es. I'm often the one who's first on scene and having to wait for an ambulance to arrive because too many are stuck at A&E. I see people being referred to the ambulance service because they cannot get access to treatment quickly any other way. I also see ambulance crews and the police having to spend time working with social and mental health issues that used to be picked up by other (mainly local authority funded - and hence slashed) services.

I work in London and see all the homeless people. I don't want to live in country were the least fortunate - or able to manage - are dumped on the streets; but I do.

And I hope none of you are wrongly accused of committing a crime. You will most likely not get legal aid due to the massive recent cuts, and even if you are not found guilt you will not get all your legal costs back due to recent changes in the law.

Labour

So I'm sadden that Labour didn't win, because I believe they would have done far more to reverse austerity than the Conservatives ever will.

So why do I think they lost:

Firstly, I think Corbyn is a decent man, but not a good leader. His dithering over the EU was a huge mistake. And he just isn't charismatic enough. Compare him to Nicola Sturgeon or even Caroline Lucas. Similar politics but those woman were a lot better at putting their cases.

Secondly, Labour have been ignoring their core vote for too long. They've taken them for granted. They needed to be in Wales and the North East listening to people concerns, but I don't think they did enough of that.

But lastly I think they suffered from not having a clear simple policy. Their offering was too complicated and lacked focus. They had nothing to compare to the simple "Let's get brexit done".

The RIGHT to live and work may be taken away but the ability will still remain

Europeans lived and worked here and Britains lived and worked in Europe pre Maastricht so why shouldn't it happen after we leave the EU?

[dave2010]

The RIGHT to live and work may be taken away but the ability will still remain

Europeans lived and worked here and Britains lived and worked in Europe pre Maastricht so why shouldn't it happen after we leave the EU?

Bureaucracy. This will perhaps be more of a pain, and cause delays. Employers, who have a choice of other workers from other EU countries will probably not put the extra effort in for Brits, unless they are really vital for their organisations. It'll just create a significant and extra barrier to employment of Brits in the EU. Totally pointless - but what do I know (other than that I lived and worked in an EU country for several years ...) and was able to travel freely around the EU and back to the UK when I wanted/needed to.

There also won't be any great desire to work with Brits, after this, though many in the EU may feel sympathy for those of us who might still like to work with them and live among them.

[mikeyb]

The NHS has never been free. Taxpayers fund the NHS. Services free at the point of use stil lhave to be paid for by the nation.

Wait until you have to pay £2000 for an X-ray and £10000 for an MRI or a few hundred £’s every month for your meds