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Thread: Moving magnet carts , can they -

  1. #21
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Norwich

    Posts: 1,003
    I'm Mike.

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    Hmmmm! As I have (12") Ace Anna, maybe I should take a punt as I'm thinking of a change. I did have a Decca (London?) around 1975 but for the life of me can't remember the deck I had it on, though maybe the arm was the International which my bro.-in-law still has. I really don't remember much about the Decca (C4E maybe?) except its sheer chutzpah but those were early days and I think it was just another cart. at the time, just before I dived hook line and sinker into the very expensive quadraphonic fiasco (Marantz oscilloscope receiver and all the plug-ins).

    Hmmm again !

  2. #22
    Join Date: Nov 2011

    Location: Seaton, Devon, UK

    Posts: 3,641
    I'm Adrian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Dixon View Post
    I have had a few, all secondhand and all rebuilt by John Wright. Currently have an SC4e and C4e plus some 78 rpm and 'head' versions. I also had a Blue which I had rebuilt and transplanted into a wooden body and is now with a friend. Like Barry I would probably go for a London Reference if buying new.

    I am currently using the SC4e in a Hadcock 242SE on a Sony TTS-8000 and it sounds better than any previous combination. I also have the C4e in a Mission 774 on a Thorens TD-124/2 and have previously used them in a Terminator and SME 3009/2 Imp (with damping).

    I think the key is to get mass at the headshell (which is why the Mk4s and the re-bodied one sounded best IMV) and to find a good tonearm match. I contemplated buying a Graham Phantom to try but the Haddcock is just fantastic with my SC4e (it's a newer 10" version). I'd still like to try with a Graham and/or a Kuzma 4point one day or maybe a Nottingham Analogue Ace Anna.

    Dynamics are amazing and in the Sony/Hadcock I also get a wide and spacious soundstage which was a little unexpected. As Barry says, the Deccas are essentially a mono design with a vertical component added as a afterthought to give stereo.

    I was long intrigued about Deccas but topoxforddoc (Charlie's) write-up on his C4e a few years ago prompted me to try one. It's been a journey, but I was hooked once I heard The Jam 'Sound Affects' played on a very ragged Decca Blue.
    Hi

    Thatís really interesting, I will investigate compliance with my set up, I suspect a London ref will meet the bill, so a bit of saving will be needed to satisfy my curiosity.

    Thanks
    [FONT="Arial"]
    Listening is the act of aural discrimination and dissemination of sound, and accepting you get it wrong sometimes


    Pro-Ject Signature 10 TT & arm, Benz Micro LP-S & Michel Cusis MC cartridge, Furutech AG-12-R4 High Performance Phono Cable, LFD MMC special phono stage, Rothwell MCX SUT, RaspberryPi/HifiBerry Digi to Beresford Caiman SEG DAC, Sony 3d blu-Ray for CDs to Caiman SEG, ALLNIC T1500 MKII SET 300B amp, Tannoy Legacy Arden speakers and JBL L100 Century's , Chord Epic speaker leads, & signature links, the Eccose Conductor CA1 cd to pre, I think I am at audio nirvana, but donít tell anyone

  3. #23
    Join Date: Feb 2010

    Location: Moved to frozen north, beyond Inverness

    Posts: 1,583
    I'm Dave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AJSki2fly View Post
    Hi Patricl, Do you use London Decca cartridges and if so which do you prefer if you have tried more than one? Thanks Adrian
    I wonder where the Decca cartridges mentioned here come from. Are they all refurbished models from yesteryear?
    Dave

  4. #24
    Join Date: Aug 2013

    Location: Isle of Wight, UK

    Posts: 65
    I'm David.

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    Hi Adrian,

    If I was you I'd try a C4E or even better an SC4E first. I'm sure the Reference is excellent but then so is the C4E and even allowing for a checkup and rebuild it will cost a fraction of the Reference.

    David Whistance

  5. #25
    Join Date: Nov 2011

    Location: Seaton, Devon, UK

    Posts: 3,641
    I'm Adrian.

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    Thanks David, I will see what can find when I have some cash.
    [FONT="Arial"]
    Listening is the act of aural discrimination and dissemination of sound, and accepting you get it wrong sometimes


    Pro-Ject Signature 10 TT & arm, Benz Micro LP-S & Michel Cusis MC cartridge, Furutech AG-12-R4 High Performance Phono Cable, LFD MMC special phono stage, Rothwell MCX SUT, RaspberryPi/HifiBerry Digi to Beresford Caiman SEG DAC, Sony 3d blu-Ray for CDs to Caiman SEG, ALLNIC T1500 MKII SET 300B amp, Tannoy Legacy Arden speakers and JBL L100 Century's , Chord Epic speaker leads, & signature links, the Eccose Conductor CA1 cd to pre, I think I am at audio nirvana, but donít tell anyone

  6. #26
    Join Date: Aug 2018

    Location: London Knightsbridge

    Posts: 369
    I'm Nari.

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    Be it moving coil or moving magnet I find many cartridges simply do not cut the mustard in general sounding rather lean and bleached, the days of the great moving magnets such a Audio Technica atm170ml and180ml and shure ultra 500 have long gone. I can quite happily listen to the top end grado,s while they can be a little un entertaining but prefer these to 80 percent of moving coils out there. I have a London reference while I love it very much could not use it as a only cartridge I would want something a bit more refined and full bodied. Most moving coils to me sound rather thin and bleached even the likes of koetsu do not have there engaging qualities they once had. I just purchased a ortofon Ana diamond and again while I hear fantastic detail and wonderful imaging it just does not make music in my opinion the way I personally like. Moving magnets never quite have the detail and insight full ness of a good coil but at least in some instances do not have the hardness and bleached quality many coils have, generally I have found many expensive coils uninspiring to say the least. Luckily there are some lovely cartridges available that still make me smile I always keep a host of spu cartridges to make me smile while they dont do everything at least they have body and scale, the deccas have to be mentioned for there fun perspective, the Miajima's and very nice while they can be heavy bottomed would certainly put them in the high rank for there musical abilities and am happy to live with them. If I were lower down the scale I still like the grado's while lack the ultimate detail can sound very musical and rewarding to say the least. Some of the older cartridges from years back just seemed to have more body and soul and less analytic in my opinion. As moving coils go the likes of hannah while not the ultimate can be rather nice and pleasant and kind of affordable. I just find the whole cartridge buying experience rather daunting one cannot really listen to most models at home and even if you do one gets sample variations even two ortofon ana cartridges do not sound identical but compared to most others ortofons are better in this regard. Moving magnets can sound good as can good coils its certainly not a case of spending more and getting more in my opinion and certainly not easy to choose the right cartridge for many one has to buy blindly and hope for the best. For now I listen to the Etsuro line of cartridges and smile even that was quite daunting as I had to trust my dealer but generally he is pretty much spot on as he has heard almost everything on the market. I have come to the conclusion there are a handful of great cartridge manufacturer's out there and one just has to be careful at whatever price point, as its certainly not a easy purchase and can easily left very very un satisfied.
    Last edited by Vrajbasi; 08-12-2019 at 10:44.
    Most important and used Walker Black Diamond Etsuro Gold, Micro Seiki 8000mk2 Kondo special V12 Tiger Eye, Fidelity Research FR 66 Shindo spu, EMT 927, sme 312 aluminium. Fidelity research fr66, Sme 3012 mk1, Sme V, Ikeda 407 IT Sme Model 30/2/Dynavector 507 Kodo Beat Turntable Airtangent 10B modified Fidelity fr66s Etsuro Cartridge . Kondo Gakuoh Mk1 powers G70 Pre,Audio Tekne TFA-8695PCS pre Audio Tekne TEA 8695 Phono. Lfd Battery Phono Stage heavily custom rebuilt by Dr Richard Bews, Tharx Phono Stage. Lfd Master Dual Biamp power amp, Lfd Anniversary master preamp. Shindo Latour Field Coil. Rockport Cygnus Biamped, Voigt Domestic Corner Horns/ Feastex Fildcoils. LFD Custom silver Ribbons. LFD Diamond Vipor Mk2 interconnects, Lfd Golden Cobra interconnect. Koetsu blue lace mono special order, Koetsu burma jade mono special order.

  7. #27
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Norwich

    Posts: 1,003
    I'm Mike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dwhistance View Post
    Hi Adrian,

    If I was you I'd try a C4E or even better an SC4E first. I'm sure the Reference is excellent but then so is the C4E and even allowing for a checkup and rebuild it will cost a fraction of the Reference.

    David Whistance
    Interesting thought, but I guess a Reference would be bought new wheres a C4E (oe SC4E) would be bought used for total refurb.

    B.t.w., It's 'If I WERE you' (it's conditional and takes an 'unreal' verb form to accentuate the impossibility or unlikelihood).

  8. #28
    Join Date: Nov 2011

    Location: Seaton, Devon, UK

    Posts: 3,641
    I'm Adrian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Reed View Post
    Interesting thought, but I guess a Reference would be bought new wheres a C4E (oe SC4E) would be bought used for total refurb.

    B.t.w., It's 'If I WERE you' (it's conditional and takes an 'unreal' verb form to accentuate the impossibility or unlikelihood).
    Yes Mike my thoughts exactly, buying a C4E (oe SC4E) which seem to generally be up for sale for around £400 and then to have to pay out probably double that in refurb cost seems an odd route to take. Also the London Decca Reference as I understand it is much more compliant so is a better fit with a modern arm, so that issue is avoided with a Reference.
    [FONT="Arial"]
    Listening is the act of aural discrimination and dissemination of sound, and accepting you get it wrong sometimes


    Pro-Ject Signature 10 TT & arm, Benz Micro LP-S & Michel Cusis MC cartridge, Furutech AG-12-R4 High Performance Phono Cable, LFD MMC special phono stage, Rothwell MCX SUT, RaspberryPi/HifiBerry Digi to Beresford Caiman SEG DAC, Sony 3d blu-Ray for CDs to Caiman SEG, ALLNIC T1500 MKII SET 300B amp, Tannoy Legacy Arden speakers and JBL L100 Century's , Chord Epic speaker leads, & signature links, the Eccose Conductor CA1 cd to pre, I think I am at audio nirvana, but donít tell anyone

  9. #29
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: Southall, West London

    Posts: 42,158
    I'm Geoff.

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    The Mk.IV Deccas and forerunners, to me at least, seem to have a 'bigger' sound than the Mk.V Londons onwards. I've not heard the Reference, but assuming it is developed from the Mk.V, it is unlikely to have the character of a Mk.IV. Perhaps this is why people are prepared to pay the money for the older ones.
    "when common sense, logic and plausibility are excluded. All that remain are foolishness and lies"

  10. #30
    Join Date: Aug 2018

    Location: London Knightsbridge

    Posts: 369
    I'm Nari.

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    The decca reference for sure has the boldest sound of the lot.In many ways offers fine value sound for pound.
    Most important and used Walker Black Diamond Etsuro Gold, Micro Seiki 8000mk2 Kondo special V12 Tiger Eye, Fidelity Research FR 66 Shindo spu, EMT 927, sme 312 aluminium. Fidelity research fr66, Sme 3012 mk1, Sme V, Ikeda 407 IT Sme Model 30/2/Dynavector 507 Kodo Beat Turntable Airtangent 10B modified Fidelity fr66s Etsuro Cartridge . Kondo Gakuoh Mk1 powers G70 Pre,Audio Tekne TFA-8695PCS pre Audio Tekne TEA 8695 Phono. Lfd Battery Phono Stage heavily custom rebuilt by Dr Richard Bews, Tharx Phono Stage. Lfd Master Dual Biamp power amp, Lfd Anniversary master preamp. Shindo Latour Field Coil. Rockport Cygnus Biamped, Voigt Domestic Corner Horns/ Feastex Fildcoils. LFD Custom silver Ribbons. LFD Diamond Vipor Mk2 interconnects, Lfd Golden Cobra interconnect. Koetsu blue lace mono special order, Koetsu burma jade mono special order.

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