Michael Fremer said :-

[Marco]

CD only became as big as it did because the industry wanted to make it happen plus the people who embraced it wanted the convenience, they are probably the same people who stream spotify on phones via earbuds.

The first bit is an undoubted truism, and with a good marketing strategy (which was the case at the time), the general public will easily buy into the 'latest craze' and follow fashion, which certainly happened then, regardless of any real benefits that CD had.

The latter I also tend to agree with, as many of those are simply today's followers of fashion, and who aren't particularly sonically discerning, the same as many were in the mid 1980s/early 90s, when we had 'the revelation' of CD. Don't get me wrong, I *like* CD and have never had a major problem with it, but I don't think it has ever represented the format that delivers the pinnacle of audiophile sound quality.

However, there's another important aspect to consider in all of this... And it's that many who jumped onto the CD bandwagon, back in the day, NEVER got to hear vinyl at its best, or for that matter, turntables.

The simple fact is that poor set-up of turntables (and their constituent components) combined with some utterly crap phonostages, especially those contained within budget integrated amps, which many people used back then, was as much responsible for them not hearing vinyl at its best [indeed the complete opposite, as the deficiencies of the electronics in question simply served to highlight many of its weaknesses] and turning to CD, which less capable amplifiers then were 'kinder' to.

The fact is, and this is still true today, it's always been much easier and far less expensive to design and build a decent line-only amplifier, to facilitate good quality CD/digital replay (or before CD, radio and tape), than it is an amplifier and/or phonostage that does proper justice to vinyl. Moreover, how many of us, back in the day were playing records that were dirty and/or in poor condition? Therefore, how could we have ever hoped to hear them properly??

However, the fact that you have to work harder and spend more to hear vinyl at its best, isn't the fault of vinyl. Therefore, neither is it an excuse to condemn it, or claim that CD/digital is sonically superior, *if* you haven't heard what vinyl can truly do in the best set-ups, which essentially is Fremer's position.

And from considerable experience of speaking to people and listening to their systems over the years, it's patently obvious that many have NEVER heard vinyl at its best, and that often the worst of its detractors are those who've never had the ability or wherewithal to experience that, and hear firsthand how it can make recorded music sound so believable and real, and in a way that simply isn't possible from CD or any other digital music format.

I often get the feeling that 'audiophiles' back in the day who so readily adopted CD, and made it their music format of choice, did so not necessarily because of reasons pertaining to sound quality, but because to them it made more technical sense, backed up by the measurements it produced being more 'accurate', and therefore it appealed more to their objectivist mindset...

And for those folk, no matter how many times they hear a better sound from vinyl, they'll never be able to rationalise it with their scientific belief system, and admit it

I've always said that sometimes the science gets in the way of the music....

Marco.

[Pharos]

Ha - well I've always admired folks who have the balls to say what they think and be themselves, regardless of who might not like it. I'd rather that than bland, gutless, shrinking violets, with about as much personality as an empty cardboard box, boring me to death every time that they open their mouths!

That's not being a plonker: that's having the confidence and self-assuredness to be yourself, and others can simply 'like it or lump it' - an attitude I can relate to myself

Fremer: "I don't do this to make friends". Quite... But if he makes some genuine ones along the way, simply being HIM, then that's all to the good. Exactly my mantra.

Marco.

Shrinking violets, oh yes I remember those form the . . . . . 50s and maybe the 60s, but not in modern Britain, or even in western society where egotism reigns, and everybody's view is equally valid. (Ha Ha).

If one is sufficiently a plonker, then one may well exhibit plonker's behaviour because, being a plonker, one is unaware of how others can see we are one.

His platform is ideal for the forming of a mutual admiration society, which to me is not the basis of real friendship.

[Marco]

Shrinking violets, oh yes I remember those form the . . . . . 50s and maybe the 60s, but not in modern Britain, or even in western society where egotism reigns, and everybody's view is equally valid. (Ha Ha).

We all have egos. It simply depends on whether you allow them to control you or not, and also if you're able to recognise and embrace your faults. I think part of the problem with Fremer (and his ilk) is that in general the rather 'reserved' nature of British people conflicts with the opposite of many (successful) Americans!

Plus, we've always been a nation with a tendency to support the underdog more, and praise 'gallant losers', than champion and commend true achievers and winners. In America it's quite different - and that is part of the problem with how people such as Fremer are perceived by British audiophiles.

In that respect, I simply see him as someone who's done well for himself, through hard work, and isn't afraid to show it - and I applaud that attitude!

If one is sufficiently a plonker, then one may well exhibit plonker's behaviour because, being a plonker, one is unaware of how others can see we are one.

Notwithstanding, of course, that the definition of a "plonker" is entirely subjective

As for friends, I didn't set out to make any, when starting this forum [rather to express my views on a number of relevant subjects and help others if I could], but have succeeded to make some good ones along the way, as well as upset a few folk, such is life.

As the old saying goes: 'You can't please all of the people all of the time', so you do your best to be true to what you're passionate about and believe in, sticking to your principles in the process, in the hope that someone else will appreciate what you're doing and benefit from it. I suspect that Fremer has a similar mantra, and believes that he's been successful in it.

Marco.

[Joe]

Agree entirely, and think he epitomises a lucky spoilt brat, who seems not to have to do much to enjoy his celeb status and luxurious Hi-Fi.

I don't think that having all the gear he has is worth paying the price of having to be him.

I don't know anything about how Fremer got to be a 'celeb' (even in the somewhat limited world of hifi), but generally speaking in this world, you make your own luck. As far as 'having to be him' is concerned, he seems happy enough being himself.

My golden rule, borrowed from the words of Jesus according to St Matthew, is 'judge not, that you may not be judged'. Or, in aother words, 'Before you judge someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, you'll be a mile away and they'll have no shoes'.

[Marco]

I don't know anything about how Fremer got to be a 'celeb' (even in the somewhat limited world of hifi), but generally speaking in this world, you make your own luck.

I completely agree. I'm also a great believer in karma, and in generally 'what goes around, comes around'... If you're essentially a good person, and set out to do more good than harm, then I believe you'll be more rewarded in life than punished.

Marco.

[Joe]

If one is sufficiently a plonker, then one may well exhibit plonker's behaviour because, being a plonker, one is unaware of how others can see we are one.

Lack of awareness of how others see one is a natural consequence of being merely human, and thus being unable to read other people's minds, so we are all plonkers to some extent. One thing I've found is that the trait one is quickest to identify in others is often one's own biggest failing, as in the Biblical 'mote and beam' saying. (Which makes me wonder what my own biggest failing is, until I remember that I am, in fact, perfect).

[Marco]

One thing I've found is that the trait one is quickest to identify in others is often one's own biggest failing, as in the Biblical 'mote and beam' saying. (Which makes me wonder what my own biggest failing is, until I remember that I am, in fact, perfect).

That is also a truism, although you may not suffer as severely from the conditions of said trait, as the person in whom you identified it. Recognising one's failings, and doing something about them [realising that none of us are perfect], is what separates the former from the latter, and in turn makes them the better person.

Marco.

[Macca]

Eh? I've owned some form of turntable virtually non-stop since 1982, and it was certainly possible to obtain them in 1995, even if you had to go second hand, including with the vinyl itself. It just wasn't very popular then, but that's quite different from there having been 'no vinyl option'.

Marco.

I was referring to new releases, either there was no vinyl release at all, and even if there was, there was nowhere round here still selling vinyl by then. Had some poor experiences with mail ordering vinyl previously, so there was no other option. There's no second hand option for new releases and back in '95 there was still new music worth buying.

[Marco]

I was referring to new releases, either there was no vinyl release at all, and even if there was, there was nowhere round here still selling vinyl by then. Had some poor experiences with mail ordering vinyl previously, so there was no other option. There's no second hand option for new releases and back in '95 there was still new music worth buying.

Fair enough (I see where you're coming from), but in terms of the bit in bold, not even the place you took me to in the centre of Stoke?

For me, there's always been shops selling vinyl, *if* you know where to look and could be bothered looking.... In 1995, Wrexham had many more independent music shops, selling CDs and vinyl (as I use to visit them when I came down) than there is now, and currently there are a few, never mind the likes of Glasgow, where I was living back then! And your home town, Liverpool, would've been the same.

As they say, seek and ye shall find.... When something's out of vogue, you can't expect to find it right on your doorstep, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. A bit like trying to find olive oil in the UK, during the 1970s, in anywhere other than a chemist....

Marco.

[Macca]

Fair enough (I see where you're coming from), but in terms of the bit in bold, not even the place you took me to in the centre of Stoke?

.

That didn't exist back in 1995. There were only 3 stores round here selling vinyl in '95 - HMV, Mike LLoyd Music and another smaller place I forget the name of. The small place closed and about the same time HMV and Mike LLoyd stopped selling vinyl. The nearest place for vinyl then was Manchester, 40 minutes on the train.

Also can't remember the specific album but I wanted it and there was no vinyl release at all. So I reluctantly bought a CD player.