Michael Fremer said :-

[Jimbo]

I only switched back to vinyl after 25 years of digital because it sounded better. If digital gets its act together and delivers a more convincing audio experience I will switch back to digital. I can afford to do both well so its not based on any financial concern, in fact digital would be easy. Buy a Server and a great DAC, sign up to Tidal and Qubuz and I would have all the music I could ever wish for at my fingertips.

Fact is digital for me still has not got there yet, close but not enough to hold my attention and make me sit down and enjoy the musical performance.

I am certainly not bothered about any of the technical arguments because ultimately it is what I hear that makes the difference and vinyl for me still sounds better.

It is good that we have journalists out there who also believe this and have held their head above the parapet because for so many years the majority simply jumped on the digital bandwagon.

[Bigman80]

I only switched back to vinyl after 25 years of digital because it sounded better. If digital gets its act together and delivers a more convincing audio experience I will switch back to digital. I can afford to do both well so its not based on any financial concern, in fact digital would be easy. Buy a Server and a great DAC, sign up to Tidal and Qubuz and I would have all the music I could ever wish for at my fingertips.

Fact is digital for me still has not got there yet, close but not enough to hold my attention and make me sit down and enjoy the musical performance.

I am certainly not bothered about any of the technical arguments because ultimately it is what I hear that makes the difference and vinyl for me still sounds better.

It is good that we have journalists out there who also believe this and have held their head above the parapet because for so many years the majority simply jumped on the digital bandwagon.

I don't think Digital will "get there" for guys like you Jim, and that's not a criticism, just a thought based on knowing how deep the love can be for all things analogue.

The PecanPi, which you heard at mine is capable of being spell binding and enchanting and yes, I freely admit that in some circumstances, Digital is harder to listen too. Especially when a mix is dire.

I do feel vinyl is more forgiving in this area and regardless of anyone's opinion, I am now of the mind that a decent digital setup brings more to the table now in terms of musical enjoyment, than it's ever done.

Ay you know too well, I was 100% against digital. Now I am buying CD's to convert to FLAC and I am definitely spinning less black discs than ever before.

If, and it's a big if, I find an affordable DAC that is capable of generating the same or better soundstage and imaging I get from vinyl, that will be the end of black discs here. That's the only area I feel the Pecan falls away, and believe me, it's a minute difference. Possible a littler drier than the vinyl but that doesn't seem to bother me in the slightest.

[Pharos]

It seems very reasonable that added noise will alter the waveform, and hence displace some of the cues the ear uses to determine position - positional information, and hence it make this vaguer, and this feel like space.

[Marco]

Just one thing....

We've been here before, and I've demonstrated this to Macca, by ripping a vinyl copy of Nat King Cole's 'Live at the Sands' onto CD (a favourite album of his that he owned beforehand on a commercially produced CD, and knew inside out), which I sent to him to compare with his own CD, and aside from some very low-level surface noice, on certain tracks, which you have to expect with vinyl, he couldn't tell the difference - and neither could I. Both sounded superb, and 'sonically correct'.

Therefore, and this is the point, if vinyl is so intrinsically [the key word] flawed, as Justin contends, then why weren't those flaws immediately apparent when either Martin or I listened to and compared both of those CDs, which were analysed many times - surely the intrinsic flaws of vinyl, and its 'pleasing colourations', would've been captured on the rip...??

And we both have very revealing systems and good ears, so if there were any obvious, INTRINSIC, flaws present on the digital recording, produced from the vinyl source, then we would've definitely heard it. Plus, I've carried out the same process with 100s of different vinyl albums, ripping them to CD, and the results were always the same: the rip sounded near sonically identical (certainly no obvious flaws) to the source CD.

I therefore put it to Justin [but don't expect him to agree], that what he's hearing (which incidentally I also believe is real) is only present on *some* vinyl recordings, and is either a deliberately engineered effect, or a flaw somewhere in the recording/mastering process and/or with the equipment used.

I don't believe that what he's describing is intrinsically inherent in vinyl itself, as otherwise the test above would've revealed it. It's just that weird electronic music you listen to, man!

Marco.

[dave2010]

I am certainly not bothered about any of the technical arguments because ultimately it is what I hear that makes the difference and vinyl for me still sounds better.

It is good that we have journalists out there who also believe this and have held their head above the parapet because for so many years the majority simply jumped on the digital bandwagon.

I agree - but costs have to be taken into account as well. I note how much Marco's room has cost. At that price I could go to operas at Glyndebourne for the next 15 years - if I live that long, and experience live sound.

I could fly to Leipzig to listen to Bach's Christmas Oratorio in the church he composed for, up to 2040 or so.

Other options - fly to New York to see opera at the Met, or go to the festivals (both Jazz and classical) in Newport, RI at least ten times.

OK - I might now be able to afford to buy seriously good new kit, and fit a room out, though unfortunately we'd probably need an even bigger house - which would wipe out our finances. Though now you're getting me to think a bit more. I don't suppose converting the garage to a listening room makes sense - where would we put all the garden stuff, but the lofts might be big enough.

[struth]

Just one thing....

We've been here before, and I've demonstrated this to Macca, by ripping a vinyl copy of Nat King Cole's 'Live at the Sands' onto CD (a favourite album of his that he owned beforehand on a commercially produced CD, and knew inside out), which I sent to him to compare with his own CD, and aside from some very low-level surface noice, on certain tracks, which you have to expect with vinyl, he couldn't tell the difference - and neither could I. Both sounded superb, and 'sonically correct'.

Therefore, and this is the point, if vinyl is so intrinsically [the key word] flawed, as Justin contends, then why weren't those flaws immediately apparent when either Martin or I listened to and compared both of those CDs, which were analysed many times - surely the intrinsic flaws of vinyl would've been captured on the rip...??

And we both have very revealing systems and good ears, so if there were any obvious, INTRINSIC, flaws present on the digital recording, produced from a vinyl source, then we would've definitely heard it. Plus, I've carried out the same process with 100s of different vinyl albums, ripping them to CD, and the results were always the same: the rip sounded near sonically identical (certainly no obvious flaws) to the source CD.

I therefore put it to Justin [but don't expect him to agree], that what he's hearing (which incidentally I also believe is real) is only present on *some* vinyl recordings, and is either a deliberately engineered effect or a flaw somewhere in the recording/mastering process and/or with the equipment used.

I don't believe that what he's describing is intrinsically inherent in vinyl itself.

Marco.

+1

[Jimbo]

Yep, digital is by far the cheaper option so its not a financial concern and it has so many other conveniences.

I am not anti digital - I like it but not enough to swap back from vinyl which I believe still sounds better.

[Jimbo]

I don't think Digital will "get there" for guys like you Jim, and that's not a criticism, just a thought based on knowing how deep the love can be for all things analogue.

The PecanPi, which you heard at mine is capable of being spell binding and enchanting and yes, I freely admit that in some circumstances, Digital is harder to listen too. Especially when a mix is dire.

I do feel vinyl is more forgiving in this area and regardless of anyone's opinion, I am now of the mind that a decent digital setup brings more to the table now in terms of musical enjoyment, than it's ever done.

Ay you know too well, I was 100% against digital. Now I am buying CD's to convert to FLAC and I am definitely spinning less black discs than ever before.

If, and it's a big if, I find an affordable DAC that is capable of generating the same or better soundstage and imaging I get from vinyl, that will be the end of black discs here. That's the only area I feel the Pecan falls away, and believe me, it's a minute difference. Possible a littler drier than the vinyl but that doesn't seem to bother me in the slightest.

I agree with you Oli and I heard it done amazingly well when I popped in the other day. But do you remember what happened when we popped on the Rodrigo y Gabriella.....

[Bigman80]

Just one thing....

We've been here before, and I've demonstrated this to Macca, by ripping a vinyl copy of Nat King Cole's 'Live at the Sands' onto CD (a favourite album of his that he owned beforehand on a commercially produced CD, and knew inside out), which I sent to him to compare with his own CD, and aside from some very low-level surface noice, on certain tracks, which you have to expect with vinyl, he couldn't tell the difference - and neither could I. Both sounded superb, and 'sonically correct'.

Therefore, and this is the point, if vinyl is so intrinsically [the key word] flawed, as Justin contends, then why weren't those flaws immediately apparent when either Martin or I listened to and compared both of those CDs, which were analysed many times - surely the intrinsic flaws of vinyl would've been captured on the rip...??

And we both have very revealing systems and good ears, so if there were any obvious, INTRINSIC, flaws present on the digital recording, produced from a vinyl source, then we would've definitely heard it. Plus, I've carried out the same process with 100s of different vinyl albums, ripping them to CD, and the results were always the same: the rip sounded near sonically identical (certainly no obvious flaws) to the source CD.

I therefore put it to Justin [but don't expect him to agree], that what he's hearing (which incidentally I also believe is real) is only present on *some* vinyl recordings, and is either a deliberately engineered effect or a flaw somewhere in the recording/mastering process and/or with the equipment used.

I don't believe that what he's describing is intrinsically inherent in vinyl itself, as otherwise the test above would've proved it. It's just that weird electronic music you listen to, man!

Marco.

I think it has to acknowledged that vinyl is a flawed medium. It's flawed by the almost impossible amount of variables, rather than anything else.

For instance, The Digital never has an off day. It's sound quality is consistently high every time I use it. I don't get that feeling when you are sometimes listening to vinyl and things don't sound right. We walk away, come back later and magically, everything seems ok again.

The cartridge is affected by temperature and humidity and then you have all the ball ache of removing any resonance from the rack or shelf etc. Then you have the medium itself. If it isn't in tiptop condition, it can sound terrible. Setup is KING for vinyl whereas you can dump a dac anywhere an expect no variation in quality. My Pecan is literally just dangling in the air on the cables lol

IME, only if you are prepared to go 100% into vinyl replay, can you expect to match the SQ of digital. Obviously, a few of us have done this and been meticulous with our setups and yes, at the moment, Vinyl is still winning overall, but DACs are coming and they will rule eventually.

[Bigman80]

I agree with you Oli and I heard it done amazingly well when I popped in the other day. But do you remember what happened when we popped on the Rodrigo y Gabriella.....

Oh I do! Which is why next time you are here, we will hear the Digital version of it.

£250 Digital setup Vs. £5k vinyl setup, in the same system.

BTW, im not treading on Vinyl. Jim, you know how much I love vinyl!