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Thread: Michael Fremer said :-

  1. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Sorry, I meant Frank Sinatra (which I was thinking but somehow typed something else), my boob!

    Sure, by my point is, you didn't detect any obvious sonic flaws in the vinyl rip, compared with your digitally-only produced CD, which you would've done had Justin's assertions been correct.

    Marco.
    Can't be 'digitally-only', as digital recording hadn't been invented back then. Might be AAD or ADD.

  2. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    You mean using a signal without dither? Not exactly a real world test. or can you explain some more?
    Nope, nothing to do with dither and everything to do with the measurement level. All of CD's vanishingly low distortion figures come from a test level of 0dB and they are not wrong. However, drop that level to -30dB, say, and the figures become more equal. Drop it to -40 or -50dB and you can measure 12% distortion from a CD player (I know - I've done it!) whereas a good cartridge will be more like 1-3%

    Obviously, there is more to it than this, such as dynamic range, which is superior on CD, but it just means that the claims of virtually zero distortion for CD were a little misleading at best.
    Engineers: fixing problems you didn't know you had in ways you don't understand.

  3. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beobloke View Post
    Nope, nothing to do with dither and everything to do with the measurement level. All of CD's vanishingly low distortion figures come from a test level of 0dB and they are not wrong. However, drop that level to -30dB, say, and the figures become more equal. Drop it to -40 or -50dB and you can measure 12% distortion from a CD player (I know - I've done it!) whereas a good cartridge will be more like 1-3%

    Obviously, there is more to it than this, such as dynamic range, which is superior on CD, but it just means that the claims of virtually zero distortion for CD were a little misleading at best.
    You are possibly right about the higher levels of distortion at lower volume levels, but how often do you listen to LPs at -50dB? Most recordings are surely not made with such low levels for most of the time. It's only really in some "real world" recordings and classical music that one might expect to have such low levels. A lot of popular music has a restricted dynamic range, so distortion at low levels is probably not an issue. Additionally, much popular music has deliberately introduced distortion - so it probably masks any distortion which comes from the replay chain - then it becomes a question of "which flavour of distortion do you like?", rather than "can I hear that with minimal distortion?"

    Using PCM encoding - as used on CDs - may give rise to distortion at low volume levels. However there are other forms of encoding which can/could reduce distortion due to digital encoding to very low levels, even at low very low volume levels. It's not just a question of digital versus analogue. There are/have been some very good anologue recordings, though doing the mixing and editing and other "tweaks" which many recording producers and musicians seem to want there days is surely very much simpler, easier and quicker using digital technology. Consumers seem to like this too, as it renders recorded music affordable to many.
    Dave

  4. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beobloke View Post
    Nope, nothing to do with dither and everything to do with the measurement level. All of CD's vanishingly low distortion figures come from a test level of 0dB and they are not wrong. However, drop that level to -30dB, say, and the figures become more equal. Drop it to -40 or -50dB and you can measure 12% distortion from a CD player (I know - I've done it!) whereas a good cartridge will be more like 1-3%

    Obviously, there is more to it than this, such as dynamic range, which is superior on CD, but it just means that the claims of virtually zero distortion for CD were a little misleading at best.
    Not really a real-world test either - but I take your point.
    Current Lash Up:

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  5. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by User211 View Post
    Marco I am at work doing a job. I cannot devote all my time satisfying your desires about what you think you need to know from me.

    To be frank I find your constant assertions that I am patronising you to be absurd. And intensely annoying. How many times do I have to tell you I am not doing so???

    I am taking a break to let you cool down again. Get a grip, bro.
    Jeezuz... Being told to "Get a grip" is extremely patronising, when I don't consider there's anything for me to "get a grip" of. Plus, I don't need to "cool down" either, as I'm not angry; simply pointing out how you're coming across, which to be frank, *I* find intensely annoying. It doesn't matter telling me you're not doing it, if that's how it reads.

    I don't like being told what to do, cool down and get a grip, etc. That isn't how you talk to people. It's not "constant assertions" - I'm simply responding to the words you type and the tone conveyed.

    If you don't have time to express yourself properly because you're at work, that's fine, so save it for when you get home. I don't want to fall out with you, Justin, but neither can I ignore being addressed in a manner that I consider as unacceptable.

    Marco.
    Main System

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    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

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  6. #176
    Join Date: Apr 2016

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    How you would here anything with that mutt barking non stop
    Bakoon 13r Denon DP80 Stax UA-70 Shure Ultra 500 in a Martin Bastin body with jico stylus, project ds2 digital Rullit aero 8 field coils in tqwt speakers

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  7. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe View Post
    Can't be 'digitally-only', as digital recording hadn't been invented back then. Might be AAD or ADD.
    Yup, sure. What I meant really was a commercially produced CD, so yes AAD or ADD. My point still stands that if vinyl inherently exhibited the characteristics, as previously described, they would show up when recorded/ripped onto CD, and compared with the same music stored on a commercial CD.

    And that simply didn't happen in the instance I mentioned.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  8. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulf-2007 View Post
    How you would here anything with that mutt barking non stop
    Sorry, Paul, who's that addressed to?

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  9. #179
    Join Date: May 2009

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Sorry, Paul, who's that addressed to?

    Marco.
    It's a reference to the very start of the video; as Fremer opens his door a dog (or several dogs) starts barking quite loudly.

  10. #180
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    Ah, it just seemed like a somewhat random comment, as the discussion has moved on since then.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


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