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Thread: Michael Fremer said :-

  1. #121
    Join Date: Apr 2011

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    I'm Robert.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Audio Al View Post
    James this is the best post I have read for ages , Keep the faith my friend , Vinyl is music at its best
    Yep !!
    My System:
    Amplification - Sansui AU-alpha 707 DR
    Turntable - Technics SP10 MK2-Technics EPA-250 Tonearm-Yannis Tome 423.5Plus tonearm cable-Eichmann KLEI Absolute Harmony plugs.
    Ortofon Cadenza Black moving coil cartridge-Fritz Gyger S re-tip. Panzerholz plinth.

    CDP - Pioneer PD-91
    Speakers - Spendor D7 on Soundcare SuperSpikes
    QED Silver Spiral speaker cable-airloc banana plugs
    Mains - Ultra Pure silver plated un-switched socket-Missing link EPS 500 silver plated plugs-Hi-Fi Tuning gold plated silver ceramic 13 amp fuses

  2. #122
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by User211 View Post
    Bout time someone did take me up on it.

    The human ear doesn't seem to care how technically good something is. It just likes hearing certain aspects of music reproduction.

    Injecting dither is a simple way to prove the point.

    Dither is just random noise. We hear it as space and air. It's been proven in blind listening tests. People prefer the dithered version. Even Porcupine Tree have played with it.

    Also a record deck is microphonic by its very nature. So acoustic feedback is another characteristic many people love to hear.

    The point is vinyl is bad. And it's bad in a way many humans like. A DAC that emulates this badness to the same extent (well not quite) will display these positive virtues if it's done well. Or good 'bad' if you catch my drift.

    Simple enough I reckon.
    Mmm.. I've highlighted the only bit that I agree with.

    The rest of it, IMO, either misses the point or doesn't actually explain what's happening, is rather simplistic thinking, or doesn't reflect my experience. Vinyl is most certainly not bad, at least not where it counts most, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to make such sensational sounds with my turntable at NEBO, raved about by everyone who heard it, nor at Scalford, where you raved about it with the Celestion 66s on the end!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  3. #123
    Join Date: May 2009

    Location: gone away

    Posts: 4,870
    I'm joe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by User211 View Post
    Needs to be the right kind of noise.
    Indeed. As Mark E Smith explained in an interview:

    “No. The whole point of the thing is that it’s rock ‘n’ roll. That’s what people seem to forget.” He looks at me accusingly. “Working with American producers on the new album was very interesting, because they get a sound that makes people listen to the songs. It’s like a subliminal tone.”

    What are you on about?

    “Take a heavy metal hit - the song’s crap, what the guy’s saying is shit, what the group is playing is rudimentary heavy metal crap, but what they do is put a little thing in the middle of the sound, like a little click, so you can’t forget it. It used to be illegal. The Ministry of Defence invented it.”

    Are you making this up?

    The poker face relaxes into a smile.

    “No, I’m not making it up. Why do you think people buy Def Leppard records then? They’re from your way aren’t they?”

  4. #124
    Join Date: May 2009

    Location: gone away

    Posts: 4,870
    I'm joe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    My room cost 29 grand but it did come with a house thrown in.

    I hate headphones though. Never used them even when I've lived in box rooms.
    I've used them a lot. They're indispensable with small children in the house. When we lived in a flat in That London, the mad Austrian woman across the way used to play opera at insanely loud levels all hours of the day and night. She should have invested in some headphones.

  5. #125
    Join Date: Mar 2017

    Location: Seaford UK

    Posts: 1,861
    I'm Dennis.

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    From my stance Marco's expenditure on decks is very high; I think that the speaker end is the most important. I've never really been happy with my Linn, and was in the 90s very happy with my Garrard Zero 100SB, with a G900SE.

    Regarding luck, I have trouble with the concept itself. To me in life we have happenstance opportunities occur, and we have to be prepared to take them as they do, but much in the way of disadvantage can be imposed on us from outside by external events.

  6. #126
    Join Date: Feb 2010

    Location: Moved to frozen north, beyond Inverness

    Posts: 2,602
    I'm Dave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by User211 View Post
    Dither is just random noise. We hear it as space and air. It's been proven in blind listening tests. People prefer the dithered version. Even Porcupine Tree have played with it.
    You can disagree with me, if you like. I think that if you apply a very small amount of dither (which you call random noise) most people won't hear it at all. Subjectively I think it reduces the apparent volume level of the music very slightly and make the signal sound smoother. If more is applied - without going wild and making it audible - it may appear to reduce the dynamics a fair bit. The type of "random" noise applied should make a difference, but if only small amounts are used it may not make too much difference what kind of noise is used.

    If my hunch is correct (which it may not be) a plausible reason for this is that the brain/ear detects the low level noise, and uses that as a level with which to compare the wanted signal. Apply more of this low level noise, and the signal will appear quieter as the gap between it and the noise floor reduces. As the noise is wide spectrum it is not immediately perceived as distinct, though if overdone and played for a long while I'd expect it to become tiring.

    A fair bit of speculation here, but there it is ....
    Dave

  7. #127
    Join Date: Jul 2009

    Location: Hampshire, UK

    Posts: 3,662
    I'm Adam.

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    The alleged technical superiority of CD is an interesting point as, if you make the right measurements, which are actually more relevant to the levels generally recorded onto CD or vinyl , it is quite possible to obtain distortion measurements from CD that are far worse than vinyl. I’ve done it myself and it’s quite an eye-opener!

    As an aside on Amstrad midi systems, the CD mechanisms in some of the early units were actually almost complete Philips CD players squeezed into an Amstrad box, so weren’t that bad! The less said about the rest of the units, the better, however...
    Engineers: fixing problems you didn't know you had in ways you don't understand.

  8. #128
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beobloke View Post
    The alleged technical superiority of CD is an interesting point as, if you make the right measurements, which are actually more relevant to the levels generally recorded onto CD or vinyl , it is quite possible to obtain distortion measurements from CD that are far worse than vinyl. I’ve done it myself and it’s quite an eye-opener!
    Interesting... Could you elaborate on the above? You may even show some graphs to illustrate your point!

    As an aside on Amstrad midi systems, the CD mechanisms in some of the early units were actually almost complete Philips CD players squeezed into an Amstrad box, so weren’t that bad!
    If that's the case, then their quality wasn't preserved by anything else downstream, thus instead diluted to the point of being unrecognisable, such was the shocking noise that eventually emanated from the 'speakers'!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  9. #129
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Bristol

    Posts: 6,843
    I'm Justin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Mmm.. I've highlighted the only bit that I agree with.

    The rest of it, IMO, either misses the point or doesn't actually explain what's happening, is rather simplistic thinking, or doesn't reflect my experience. Vinyl is most certainly not bad, at least not where it counts most, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to make such sensational sounds with my turntable at NEBO, raved about by everyone who heard it, nor at Scalford, where you raved about it with the Celestion 66s on the end!

    Marco.
    I'm only making two points.

    Well let's start with dither my point is a proven fact. How is that simplistic?

    I'll admit it was years ago I read it and I have no link, though I could possibly find one. I think it was in Hi-Fi News.

    But I can probably find that Porcupine Tree track so you can hear it directly. It will make you smile. Everytime I hear it it makes me smile. It sounds excellent. It's injected into the track at quite high levels but you don't realise it. Then it stops. But the dither plays on. And there's truck loads of it. And you realise you've been 'had'.

    Audiophiles need to realise how limited their perceptions are in certain respects. This gives a true example of what you thought you knew must be a good thing, like low noise, quite simply is not under certain circumstances.

    AoS insomniacs post. It's 2:55 AM LOL.

    I can go beyond these two points if you want more. There's loads of examples where technically crap sounds AMAZING. Tonnes.

  10. #130
    Audio Al is offline Pishanto Specialist & Super-Daftee
    Join Date: May 2012

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    I'm Allen.

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    I often dither coz i'm a numpty
    [

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