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Thread: What sample rate?

  1. #11
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    they do a coax one too but its expensive
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  2. #12
    Join Date: May 2016

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    Higher bit rates are not primarily about extending the playback frequencies. For me, the benefit of upsampling relates to how the digital signal is dealt with in the analogue processing. Try doing a google search on reconstruction filters.

    I am using Audivarna to upsample my flac files and the improvement in sq is considerable. Everything just sounds smoother and more analogue.

  3. #13
    montesquieu Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherwood View Post
    Higher bit rates are not primarily about extending the playback frequencies. For me, the benefit of upsampling relates to how the digital signal is dealt with in the analogue processing. Try doing a google search on reconstruction filters.

    I am using Audivarna to upsample my flac files and the improvement in sq is considerable. Everything just sounds smoother and more analogue.

    It may sound smoother and more analogue but since no additional information is available all you are doing is manipulation of the data in the digital domain. Great that it sounds better (I'm all for that) but it has nothing whatsoever to do with a file being redbook or hi-res to begin with.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    I'd be interested in what design factors you are taking about?
    I imagine that he's talking about the effects of anti-alias filtering before sampling, and of reconstruction filtering after conversion back to analogue.

    Deficiencies in either have the potential to alias (unwanted) high frequencies onto low frequencies so they can produce in-audio-band frequencies from out-of-audio-band frequencies.

    If you sample at 44.1KHz any energy above 22.05KHz is reflected back about 44.1KHz, so (eg) a 30KHz signal would appear at 14.10KHz (with opposite phase). You can see this effect in old western films (shot at 25fps) where a wagon wheel can start off rotating in the right direction, and then appear to rotate backwards when the wagon reaches a certain speed.

    Good design should avoid this, but the higher the sampling rate the more room the designer has to remove the unwanted signal without harming the ones you do want to retain.

  5. #15
    montesquieu Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Dixon View Post
    I imagine that he's talking about the effects of anti-alias filtering before sampling, and of reconstruction filtering after conversion back to analogue.

    Deficiencies in either have the potential to alias (unwanted) high frequencies onto low frequencies so they can produce in-audio-band frequencies from out-of-audio-band frequencies.

    If you sample at 44.1KHz any energy above 22.05KHz is reflected back about 44.1KHz, so (eg) a 30KHz signal would appear at 14.10KHz (with opposite phase). You can see this effect in old western films (shot at 25fps) where a wagon wheel can start off rotating in the right direction, and then appear to rotate backwards when the wagon reaches a certain speed.

    Good design should avoid this, but the higher the sampling rate the more room the designer has to remove the unwanted signal without harming the ones you do want to retain.
    Debates have long raged about upsampling and filtering - one of those ideological battles in my opinion - but the question was about playback of redbook vs higher resolution files, ie files recorded and mastered at higher bit rates. This has nothing do with upsampling which is after all just a method of manipulating data that's fed in to the system from a disk, file or stream, whatever resolution it starts at.

  6. #16
    Join Date: May 2016

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Dixon View Post
    I imagine that he's talking about the effects of anti-alias filtering before sampling, and of reconstruction filtering after conversion back to analogue.

    Deficiencies in either have the potential to alias (unwanted) high frequencies onto low frequencies so they can produce in-audio-band frequencies from out-of-audio-band frequencies.

    If you sample at 44.1KHz any energy above 22.05KHz is reflected back about 44.1KHz, so (eg) a 30KHz signal would appear at 14.10KHz (with opposite phase). You can see this effect in old western films (shot at 25fps) where a wagon wheel can start off rotating in the right direction, and then appear to rotate backwards when the wagon reaches a certain speed.

    Good design should avoid this, but the higher the sampling rate the more room the designer has to remove the unwanted signal without harming the ones you do want to retain.
    Exactly, though I'm not sure about the wagon wheel analogy. I am not interested in ideological debates only sq. I have only recently become a convert to digital and I am sure that my distaste had a lot to do with poor digital processing. Using Audivarna on a reasonably powerful pc allows me to upsample redbook and even high res files. The improvement in sq is not small.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Always worth bearing in mind that if the recording equipment could not capture frequencies above 22Khz then there will be nothing there to reproduce even if it could be heard. And also that the loudspeakers used for playback would need to be capable of reproducing frequencies above 22Khz, and at sufficient levels to be audible.

    Lots of cons in audio but 'hi res' replay has to be the biggest and most successful of them by a margin.
    Yet another problem would be if the recording equipment could capture frequencies above 22 kHz, then depending on how the data was processed those sounds could be mapped down into the audible range and would appear as noise - which may, or may not, be annoying. If that is going to be a problem (bats flying round the recording studio - though to my slight surprise I actually heard a bat a year or so back - I didn't think my hearing went that high ..) then the high frequencies should be filtered off either with an analogue filter, or a digital one before the signal is converted to the digital form for distribution.
    Dave

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    Debates have long raged about upsampling and filtering - one of those ideological battles in my opinion - but the question was about playback of redbook vs higher resolution files, ie files recorded and mastered at higher bit rates. This has nothing do with upsampling which is after all just a method of manipulating data that's fed in to the system from a disk, file or stream, whatever resolution it starts at.
    I don't think I mentioned upsampling. My post has nothing to do with upsampling either!

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherwood View Post
    Exactly, though I'm not sure about the wagon wheel analogy.
    It's not an analogy, it's an example of aliasing.

  10. #20
    Join Date: May 2016

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Dixon View Post
    It's not an analogy, it's an example of aliasing.
    If we are being pedantic it is both as you are making comparisons between audio and video (analogy def: a comparison between things that have similar features, often used to help explain a principle or idea)

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