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Thread: What sample rate?

  1. #1
    Join Date: Sep 2019

    Location: Bristol (south of).

    Posts: 110
    I'm Kev.

    Default What sample rate?

    My DAC is capable of 24 bit 192KHz.
    I believe that my ears are capable of a lot less, so is there any benefit from running more than 44.1kHz sample rate?
    If so, why?

  2. #2
    Join Date: Feb 2010

    Location: Berkshire, UK

    Posts: 4,164
    I'm Tom.

    Default

    In my view sample rate is (for the most part) irrelevant unless we are talking lower sample rates than redbook eg MP3 with shedloads of compression. The most important feature in any digital replay is the recording and mastering - a good quality redbook 44.1k file will sound better than a poorly recorded and mastered hi-res file regardless of the kit that it's on.

    The next most important factor in digital replay is the output stage. The vast majority of CDPs and DACs use op amps of variable quality, that can make or break a component. Some of course are very good and with the right attention paid to power supplies, screening, connectors etc can sound fantastic. Others have valve output - I like to think about DACs as a preamp without a volume control - so the questions to ask are what's the quality of what's receiving the raw signal from the DAC chip at the end of the digital to analogue conversion process, adding gain, and outputting it to the connectors on the back?; what's the output impedance? essentially, is there anything constraining its performance as a preamp amplifying and outputting the converted signal to the next component in the chain?

    I happen to prefer non-oversampling redbook-focused R2R chips such as the AD1865 in my own Audio Note based DAC (another example would be the TDA1541), but other than 'features' (such as the ability to play lots of different resolution files, or to manipulate the chip output in some form using digital signal processing) I think the chip is actually the least important part of the thing, certainly less important than the receiver chip/master clock/USB conversion interface and other related circuitry in bringing in the digital signal ready for analogue conversion with minimal error.

    Others I'm sure will disagree but I would say focus on getting redbook right, high-res I'm sure is fun to play with but the vast majority of music out there is 41.1k and it's surely that that requires focus.
    Main: Speakers 'RFC' Tannoy Canterburys / custom crossovers with Tannoy ST50 supertweeters; Amp - Silvercore 833C monoblocks; preamp TBA watch this space; Vinyl: Schopper'd Thorens TD124 MkII + Ikeda IT345-CR1 9 inch and Ikeda IT-407 12 inch tonearms; Cartridges Stereo - Miyajima Madake, Miyajima Takumi, Ikeda 9TT, vintage Ortofon SPU GM and SPU Gold; Mono - Miyajimas - Zero 0.7, Premium 1.0, Miyajima/Edison '78' 4.0 conical, and Shure M44 strapped for mono with several Expert Stylus conicals for different eras of 78s; Phono stage Allnic H7000V used with Miyajima ETR-Mono and ETR-Stereo SUTs; Digital: Audio Note CDT2/II transport, heavily enhanced AN DAC based on kit but aspiring to DAC5 spec.

    Study: Speakers - Tannoy DC6; Amp: Marantz PM-4; Digital: CDP Sony CDP-X3000ES & Arcam rBlink; Vinyl: Garrard 401 with AT 1503 MkI broadcast arm, Ortofon SPU Classic GM, Ortofon 2-15k SUT and Puresound Tenuto platter mat

  3. #3
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 26,413
    I'm Martin.

    Default

    There's no benefit from running more than 44.1kHz sample rate.
    Current Lash Up:

    *Sony SCD XB790QS* Nelson Pass DCB1 / Krell KSA100 mkII * JM Lab Electra 926 *


    'You fool! To think that your ape-brain could contain the full knowledge of the Krell!'

  4. #4
    Join Date: Feb 2013

    Location: W Lothian

    Posts: 61,878
    I'm Grant.

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    I try to use 24/96. I rip all my vinyl to this as well, but redbook cds are just ripped as normal although upsampled.
    After saying this, when on headphones I mostly use HD bluetooth at 16/48.
    The 24/96 is better but not by a lot.
    Regards,
    Grant .... ؠ

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: democracy simply-doesn't-work
    .... ..... ...... ...... ................... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....
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  5. #5
    Join Date: Feb 2010

    Location: Moved to frozen north, beyond Inverness

    Posts: 1,504
    I'm Dave.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    There's no benefit from running more than 44.1kHz sample rate.
    That's a bit definite.

    Theoretically there's not a lot of point, but theory doesn't always work. Some - such as Grant - claim a slight improvement with more quantisation levels and a higher sampling rate. This is perhaps not because the theory (based on the sampling theorem) is incorrect, but because design factors in the recording chain and in the replay equipment do lead to an audible improvement.

    A few people do genuinely seem to have hearing which can hear up to and above 20 kHz, so for them there might be a benefit in a higher sampling rate. Such people are fairly rare though, particularly among older people. I gave up worrying about TV whistle, and noise from fluorescent lights some years ago - though when I was youger these were a real pain.
    Dave

  6. #6
    Join Date: Sep 2019

    Location: Bristol (south of).

    Posts: 110
    I'm Kev.

    Default

    Thanks for the replies.
    I still have relatively good hearing, as small high pitch whines from led or fluorescent bulbs etc. annoy me.
    I have been trying to get noise free 24 bit 192KHz output from my music PC to my SEG, but it just seems troublesome.
    I have dropped the sample rate to 24/96 and this seems pretty good, and does not annoy all of the dogs in the neighbourhood so much.

  7. #7
    Join Date: Feb 2013

    Location: W Lothian

    Posts: 61,878
    I'm Grant.

    Default

    Could try one of the ifi usb solutions. They plug in in line.
    The ifi silencer is 49
    Regards,
    Grant .... ؠ

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: democracy simply-doesn't-work
    .... ..... ...... ...... ................... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....
    OPPO BDP-103D - JBE SERIES 3/B&O SP1/PROJECT PHONOBOX DS2 USB - QUAD VENA 2 - IFI PURIFIER 2/TWIN PRO MONOBLOCK POWER AMPLIFIERS - LEAF HD BLUETOOTH - OPPO PM-3 PLANAR, SONY H900 & NURAPHONE HEADPHONES - ZBOOK/ IFI SILENCER/WIN10 PRO/AUDIRVANA & JRIVER - SMSL M6 DAC & IFI SILENCER - RPI 3+, DIGIONE HAT/VOLUMIO2 - EDINGDALE MK1 SPEAKERS - CABLE INC CHORD, MOGAMI, SUPRA & WIREWORLD

    **Men are not punished for their sins, but by them**Don't be such a big girl's blouse!**
    ***SMILE, BE HAPPY***

  8. #8
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 26,413
    I'm Martin.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dave2010 View Post
    This is perhaps not because the theory (based on the sampling theorem) is incorrect, but because design factors in the recording chain and in the replay equipment do lead to an audible improvement.

    .
    I'd be interested in what design factors you are taking about?

    Suspect if Grant tried to distinguish his hi rez copies from his red book standard ones without knowing which is which he would...struggle. No-one in he world has ever managed to do that. And that's leaving aside the fact that vinyl does not come close to the FR or DR of red book let alone anything higher.

    Always worth bearing in mind that if the recording equipment could not capture frequencies above 22Khz then there will be nothing there to reproduce even if it could be heard. And also that the loudspeakers used for playback would need to be capable of reproducing frequencies above 22Khz, and at sufficient levels to be audible.

    Lots of cons in audio but 'hi res' replay has to be the biggest and most successful of them by a margin.
    Current Lash Up:

    *Sony SCD XB790QS* Nelson Pass DCB1 / Krell KSA100 mkII * JM Lab Electra 926 *


    'You fool! To think that your ape-brain could contain the full knowledge of the Krell!'

  9. #9
    Join Date: Feb 2013

    Location: W Lothian

    Posts: 61,878
    I'm Grant.

    Default

    in your opinion, thats fair enough. i have mine, others have theirs....such is life
    Regards,
    Grant .... ؠ

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: democracy simply-doesn't-work
    .... ..... ...... ...... ................... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....
    OPPO BDP-103D - JBE SERIES 3/B&O SP1/PROJECT PHONOBOX DS2 USB - QUAD VENA 2 - IFI PURIFIER 2/TWIN PRO MONOBLOCK POWER AMPLIFIERS - LEAF HD BLUETOOTH - OPPO PM-3 PLANAR, SONY H900 & NURAPHONE HEADPHONES - ZBOOK/ IFI SILENCER/WIN10 PRO/AUDIRVANA & JRIVER - SMSL M6 DAC & IFI SILENCER - RPI 3+, DIGIONE HAT/VOLUMIO2 - EDINGDALE MK1 SPEAKERS - CABLE INC CHORD, MOGAMI, SUPRA & WIREWORLD

    **Men are not punished for their sins, but by them**Don't be such a big girl's blouse!**
    ***SMILE, BE HAPPY***

  10. #10
    Join Date: Sep 2019

    Location: Bristol (south of).

    Posts: 110
    I'm Kev.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by struth View Post
    Could try one of the ifi usb solutions. They plug in in line.
    The ifi silencer is 49
    Thanks, but I am trying to avoid USB for audio use (rightly or wrongly).

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