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Thread: Too much gain

  1. #11
    Join Date: May 2016

    Location: Much Wenlock

    Posts: 1,522
    I'm Gary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slawts View Post
    Gary is that offer still open and what db level are they?
    Yes offer still open 10dB

    Just PM me your address.

    Gary
    It is easier to seek forgiveness than to ask permission

    Rules are meant for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men

  2. #12
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: West London

    Posts: 153
    I'm Steve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edward View Post
    I have a pair of RCA Goldenjacks and a pair of XLR Rothwells somewhere you can try and return. Each I think at 10db attenuation.

    I'd need to find them if you are interested.
    Hi Edward,

    The rca Goldenjacks would be interesting but I don't have balanced sockets so the Rothwells are out. I think 10db is the max I would want to try. If you are in N2 I can pick up as I am just in W3 off the North Circular.
    Thorens TD550, Ortofon 12", Ortofon Jubilee or Koetsu Black; Rothwell MCL SUT, VTL 2.5 pre, XTC POW 1 power; Naim CD5x; KEF Reference 3.2's; Van den Hul interconnects and speaker cables.

  3. #13
    Join Date: Mar 2017

    Location: West Sūžsēaxe

    Posts: 2,015
    I'm Edward.

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    Cool. Yes I'm familiar with the North Circular (unfortunately).

    Let me find them. I'll send you a PM. Gary may have a better quality pair so try both.

    If 10db attenuation works for you I'd recommend you go with Alan's suggestion of changing the gain in the pre.
    Current: [P20] Roon/Tidal > Custom PC> Chevron Paradox NDF16 > Phast Pre > Neuro. 686 > Tannoy Berkley (RFC tweaks)


  4. #14
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: West London

    Posts: 153
    I'm Steve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edward View Post
    Cool. Yes I'm familiar with the North Circular (unfortunately).

    Let me find them. I'll send you a PM. Gary may have a better quality pair so try both.

    If 10db attenuation works for you I'd recommend you go with Alan's suggestion of changing the gain in the pre.
    Yes, I'm going to try Gary's as well. If either a success

    If not, I'll be able to bore for Britain on the subject.
    Thorens TD550, Ortofon 12", Ortofon Jubilee or Koetsu Black; Rothwell MCL SUT, VTL 2.5 pre, XTC POW 1 power; Naim CD5x; KEF Reference 3.2's; Van den Hul interconnects and speaker cables.

  5. #15
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: West London

    Posts: 153
    I'm Steve.

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    I have had a chance to borrow a set of Rothwell and Golden Jacks and been trying them in my system between the pre and power and plugged in to the power end. Listening has been vinyl, CD and high res via a Fiio plugged in to an Audiolab Q Dac.

    Firstly my extreme thanks to both Stryder5 and Edward of this parish for the loans and the latter for a listen to his magnificent Tannoys via two flavours of valve amplification.

    The Rothwell and Golden Jacks are both 10db attenuation although the latter are a little louder and listening volume is now moved from around 8 o'clock to a little past 9. The Golden Jacks are larger and a bit blingy. The Rothwells are more refined looking and smaller but plugging the interconnect in to the female is more difficult as there is a lip around which stops my interconnect fully engaging. I would consider this a design fault.

    I used a sound meter app on my phone to try and set levels but all figures should be judged as approximate.

    Full rig switched on with the pre on mute gave a level of 24db with the phone next to the tweeter/mid dual concentric unit. Pre mute off without attenuators gave a reading of 29db and I could hear audible hiss standing next to the speaker.

    Fitting either pair brought the level down to 24db and no hiss unless you put your ear right to the speaker. Even then it was very faint. Result.

    Listening levels were between 60 and 80db.

    Listening commenced with the Golden Jacks and I tried prolonged listening then swapped.

    I noticed that they need to be in for a little while to warm up before they come on song. An example of this, having changed over to the Rothwells I put on Running on Empty by Jackson Browne. The first couple of tracks sounded ok but then the sound seemed to grow and Jackson was singing about Rosie there in my room. It was unreal and so transparent!

    I swapped between them over the days and it was extremely difficult to judge one better over the other. I can only give a flavour to each. The Golden Jacks seemed slighty better in the bass but treble seemed slighty rolled off. The Rothwells at one stage seemed slightly less transparent and harsh and then more transparent with a touch more air. I can really only say with certainty if I owned the Golden Jacks I wouldn't change them and vice versa.

    The improvements that both bring are a lower noise floor so darker background. There is a lack of hard edge and the music relaxes. Acoustic instruments sound more authentic. Dynamics are unchanged but transparency increased and I heard the occasional detail which I had never noticed before. This even happened on a vinyl copy of Something/Anything by Todd Rundgren which I bought new circa 1974 and have on 24/96 download as well. I thought I had heard everything on that album!

    For me, a pair of attenuators is a must buy. As the volume control is only now around 9 I wonder if purchasing 15db or 20db will bring more benefits. There are only two other manufacturers I can find as alternatives, Russ Andrews at an eye watering £101 or Harrison Labs about £30+ but need to be ordered from the States. I would love to know if anyone has tried and compared these to the Rothwells or Golden Jacks.

    I hope this useful to those with the same problem. It has stopped me wanting to buy a new pre (for now!!!) so that's a financial relief.
    Thorens TD550, Ortofon 12", Ortofon Jubilee or Koetsu Black; Rothwell MCL SUT, VTL 2.5 pre, XTC POW 1 power; Naim CD5x; KEF Reference 3.2's; Van den Hul interconnects and speaker cables.

  6. #16
    Join Date: Mar 2017

    Location: West Sūžsēaxe

    Posts: 2,015
    I'm Edward.

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    Interesting and glad the loan of the attentuators proved useful Steve.

    As per our PMs I'm still confused if it is your pre giving out too much voltage or your power amp being too sensitive - or a bit of both?

    I forget now, but did you try a different pre or power to see if you can track down where the issue is?

    Perhaps Alan (Firebottle) can knock up some attenuators for you? Surely they are simply in line resistors? So male and female phono connectors, a bit of cable, resistors and heatsink I'd imagine?
    Current: [P20] Roon/Tidal > Custom PC> Chevron Paradox NDF16 > Phast Pre > Neuro. 686 > Tannoy Berkley (RFC tweaks)


  7. #17
    Join Date: Oct 2014

    Location: Surrey

    Posts: 549
    I'm Graham.

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    Hi Steve, i had a similar problem with a Canary Audio Pre amp. I took it to Henry Durrant Toprepairman near Leatherhead so not too far from you. Henry made some simple modifications to the circuit to significantly reduce gain which worked perfectly, increasing usable volume range and reducing noise.

  8. #18
    Join Date: Oct 2014

    Location: Surrey

    Posts: 549
    I'm Graham.

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    Btw, i agree with your assessment of the Rothwell and GoldenJack attenuators. I have had both and consider the Goldenjacks are more transparent and made a firmer connection at both ends.

  9. #19
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: West London

    Posts: 153
    I'm Steve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edward View Post
    Interesting and glad the loan of the attentuators proved useful Steve.

    As per our PMs I'm still confused if it is your pre giving out too much voltage or your power amp being too sensitive - or a bit of both?

    I forget now, but did you try a different pre or power to see if you can track down where the issue is?

    Perhaps Alan (Firebottle) can knock up some attenuators for you? Surely they are simply in line resistors? So male and female phono connectors, a bit of cable, resistors and heatsink I'd imagine?
    Hi Edward,

    I think it is the pre has too much gain.

    I tried it with an Audiolab Q dac as a pre and it was absolutely silent.

    I have bought the Rothwells so will keep with them in the system which is now happily quiet.

    "Btw, i agree with your assessment of the Rothwell and GoldenJack attenuators. I have had both and consider the Goldenjacks are more transparent and made a firmer connection at both ends."

    Hi Graham I actually thought the Rothwells were slightly more transparent although the Golden Jacks have the better connections. There's really not much between them. The Golden Jacks seem better value but the guy who makes them seems to have disappeared so I don't think they are made anymore. Shame.
    Thorens TD550, Ortofon 12", Ortofon Jubilee or Koetsu Black; Rothwell MCL SUT, VTL 2.5 pre, XTC POW 1 power; Naim CD5x; KEF Reference 3.2's; Van den Hul interconnects and speaker cables.

  10. #20
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Norwich

    Posts: 1,064
    I'm Mike.

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    As you are using the attenuators before the power, you might be successful with -15dB ones, though I'm quite convinced that the greater the attenuation the more impairment to dynamics; stands to reason (i.m.o.). My G/jacks (-6dB) were used between CDP and pre. at the pre. end, as it was only the CDP which had too much gain. Nicely made, G/jacks. Maybe the R.A. ones use silver wire for that price !

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