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Thread: Power supply (for Garrard) question

  1. #21
    Join Date: Mar 2017

    Location: Melbourne

    Posts: 239
    I'm Karl.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dave2010 View Post
    I'm not quite sure what the requirements are here. Are we talking DC to AC or AC to AC?

    Of course some AC -> AC circuits may go via DC.

    I suspect it's AC and a good clean sine wave with accurate frequency control may be the requirement. I do actually have a Garrard, recently rescued from my loft, but I haven't looked at the motor to check it out.

    Some DC->AC converters don't generate a very clean sine wave, and probably also lose energy which must result in heat.

    I wasn't thinking about driving motors, but did look into this some while ago while considering good inverters for use with DC output from PV panels.
    Im assuming AC to AC. The monarchy power supply converts its from AC to Dc then back to AC from what i can gather.


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  2. #22
    Join Date: Mar 2017

    Location: Melbourne

    Posts: 239
    I'm Karl.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ali Tait View Post
    I can mail him for you if you like?
    Thanks Ali i have his email now from another fellow member.


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  3. #23
    Join Date: Mar 2017

    Location: Melbourne

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    I'm Karl.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Dixon View Post
    Sorry but that is simply not true: the 'steps' are filtered by a low pass filter and the output is an analogue sinewave. Any 'noise' (actually harmonics) would be the result of poor filter design.

    If you are able to diy, there is a design available on lenco heaven that works well with my 301. Search for Nigel's Speed Controller.
    PS. it's analogue too.
    See this is why i come on here to ask/check on all the things i see and here because im about as much use as a chocolate teapot when it comes to electronics. So as you can probably gather from this, a DIY build is not something i would be confident undertaking . Although reading up the NSC seems very popular and doable for about £300 which is fantastic. Most of the supplies i see are in the £8-900 region.


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    Linn Sondek LP12 ( Santos rosewood plinth ,Roksan Nima with Tiger Paw Skale and Yannis tonearm cable, Cirkus, Trampolin2, SSP12 inner platter, Tiger Paw tranquility, Vivid subchassis, Vinyl Passion thick top plate / Mose Hercules 2 gold power supply / Audio Technica ART 9 / Whest 2.2 phonostage / Croft 25RLS preamp with NOS RCA valves / Croft 7R monoblocks with NOS RCA valves/ Spendor SP2/3R2 / Chord cobra 3 interconnects / QED signature revelation speaker cable / Marantz CD DAC /Atacama Equinox rack

  4. #24
    Join Date: Oct 2011

    Location: Glasgow/Italy

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    I'm Drew.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbird View Post
    Does anybody know if its cheaper to buy direct from Nick rather than through MCRU etc ?

    It's about the same, MCRU may have an ex demo reduced price if you're very lucky.

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    It's about the same, MCRU may have an ex demo reduced price if you're very lucky.

  5. #25
    Join Date: Oct 2014

    Location: Surrey

    Posts: 290
    I'm Graham.

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    I use a power regenerator for several components in addition to the lda quartz psu. I would love not to have to run 2 regenerators but when I plugged the 401 into the power inspired some.of the magic was lost. So the lda psu stays put ! With other dedicates PSUs improvement was not enough to.notice compared to using the power inspired but the lda is a noticeable improvement.

  6. #26
    Join Date: Feb 2010

    Location: Moved to frozen north, beyond Inverness

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    I'm Dave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbird View Post
    Im assuming AC to AC. The monarchy power supply converts its from AC to Dc then back to AC from what i can gather.


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    I'm slightly annoyed with myself here. A while back I looked into DC to AC inverters, and found that a very simple design based on switching and phase reversal could give a moderately good approximation to a sine wave. The maths showed that this should work, and I think some cheaper inverters use techniques like this. In some inverters this approach is called MSW for modified sine wave - see https://www.explainthatstuff.com/how...ters-work.html

    However, this approach only really works to drive some devices, and perhaps not even then. Some devices, such as electric heaters, and perhaps some motors might work with such an imperfect inverter, but many devices don't work well or at all.

    An approach which could be taken would be to take an MSW inverter, and then filter off the unwanted frequencies, to give a purer sine wave, but that would reduce the power output further, and give more heat. Such devices would have an efficiency of maybe 90% or less. In theory also, using "perfect" switching would not lose any energy, as either the effective voltage would be 0, or the effective current would be 0 (think about square waves), so energy wasted due to switching would be zero. In practice this is not going to be the case, and there will be some loss of energy due to switching. Also, the switching transients must surely generate considerable noise.

    Much better designs (about which I know less) are more efficient, and can convert significantly more than 90% of the DC energy into AC. These will still use high speed switching, but in different ways (I said I didn't know much about them ...) - but depending on how well they are designed and made there might still be a deviation from a perfect sine wave - a noise component. This could be reduced by filtering, but again that would lose energy to heat.

    An added complication in the real world is that connecting a load to such a power source will interact with it, so that will also interact with the shape of the approximated sine wave. Low power circuits, such as are used in computers, will probably not affect the power supply too much, but in much larger scale power engineering (think high speed electric locomotives) the interaction between the power source and the driven device could be very much greater. I feel sure that some electrical/electronic engineers will have worked out designs which are good enough for many purposes, and take into account more factors than simple harmonic analysis would require. If the designed power output is considerably greater than the required load output then results should be rather good with well designed circuits, but if the power drawn gets close to the maximum, then I would expect performance (i.e. quality of results vs desired) to drop off. In audio it is well known that trying to run an amplifier too hard gives rise to clipping (undesirable). For driving motors or devices such as heaters, there would be a reduction in power if the power supply could not deliver the maximum power under all conditions, and for motors this might not be too noticeable if there is high rotational inertia, but it might manifest itself as a slight speed variation - which presumably in the example of a record turntable might translate into an audible and unwanted effect.

    Whether it is worth spending large amounts of money to try to overcome the deficiencies of the motor and its associated power source I can't say.

    Sorry if this is rambling a bit - but in any case I think it qualifies me for membership of the Insomniacs Club!
    Dave

  7. #27
    Join Date: Jun 2018

    Location: Mildenhall, Suffolk

    Posts: 363
    I'm John.

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    A NSC can have the parts required purchased for £300+
    this sum is not the real cost of the NSC.
    If a individual can assemble it without any other support,
    on completion, if all has been carried out carefully it will fire up and offer a function, this version will be a £300+ NSC, that I feel confident in saying will have its own unique performance as a result of the build method
    and also have a unique effect on a TT's SQ.
    The NSC can be built in another method it will require a understanding of EE'ing and the devices used to control the adherence to the designs operational parameters, this version will be built on a test bench.

    I will feel I can safely claim this version of a NSC built will for the average individual require a outside support that will incur a additional cost, so I would say £500+ is more likely to be the cost.
    I have listened to NSC's over the past years, and the ones that are most memorable are the ones that have been on a test bench.
    I have reported on the Mains vs NSC vs LDA MKII in other threads.
    I have now come to the conclusion that
    Speed Controllers/Mains Conditioners have a effect on the SQ presented and each device has its own signature.
    Your queries at present seem more relating to available designs, but what is not being aired is that each design has a impact on the end performance.
    From my experiences the effect on the SQ by a device is the deal clincher or breaker.
    If the plan is to only improve on the Mains then all the devices I have auditioned are quite capable of that.
    To make a decision and not have to spend twice, it is advisable to have a home trial of commercial units and beg, borrow, a audition with a DIY version, ultimately trying one that is a built on a test bench version.

  8. #28
    Join Date: Mar 2009

    Location: South West-ish, UK

    Posts: 305
    I'm Patrick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnG View Post
    A NSC can have the parts required purchased for £300+
    this sum is not the real cost of the NSC.
    If a individual can assemble it without any other support,
    on completion, if all has been carried out carefully it will fire up and offer a function, this version will be a £300+ NSC, that I feel confident in saying will have its own unique performance as a result of the build method
    and also have a unique effect on a TT's SQ.
    The NSC can be built in another method it will require a understanding of EE'ing and the devices used to control the adherence to the designs operational parameters, this version will be built on a test bench.
    As an EE I can't disagree. However there is only really one thing to setup and it's fairly simple if you have access to an oscilloscope.

    But I fully understand if people want to buy a finished product and the £500 difference has got to be worth it if you don't enjoy building stuff.

  9. #29
    Join Date: Feb 2010

    Location: Moved to frozen north, beyond Inverness

    Posts: 1,504
    I'm Dave.

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    Reverting back to my msg 18, it seems to me that the requirements are for a sufficiently powerful PSU, with variable frequency, variable output voltage, and very good noise suppression and accurage sine wave output.

    I'm not quite sure what NSC stands for - though I'm guessing that the SC bit stands for Speed Control.

    I don't know yet whether it really would make a difference if the design was all analogue, or all digital, or a hybrid. One or two of the posts here do suggest that getting all the parameters "right" does make a sonic difference. Whether I would want to take up these ideas for the 401 I found in my loft I'm not sure. I think it'll need some TLC before even getting to thinking about fancy PSUs.

    In the first instance I'd expect the main bearing and the idler wheel to need attention as the highest priorities.

    I'll think about that one - though I have a three other turntables to mess with - if I can be bothered. A TD 125 and a Garrard Zero 100, and one other - which I think is a direct drive. I'll need to check. I always meant to get these working again - when I had the time - but that hasn't happened yet.
    Dave

  10. #30
    Join Date: Sep 2011

    Location: Kilmarnock, Ayrshire, Scotland

    Posts: 458
    I'm stuart.

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    NSC - Nigel’s Speed Controller : PCB made buy a guy called Nigel.
    Garrard 401, Jelco 750 with Shuggie, Ortofon 2M Black / ZYX Yatra 100, Project Phono RS with Sigma22 Linear PS, RPi3 + DigiOne + Linear PS, RPi3/1Tb SSD with PiCorePlayer + Linear PS, Perreaux Eloquence 250i 40th Anniversary with ES9038Pro DAC, Monitor Audio PL300, Tannoy Mansfield 15" HPD's.

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