War shite (moved from Blank Canvas)

[AJSki2fly]

All agreed. My argument is that the conflict happened not because America was/is 'evil' but because they thought they were doing what was necessary. With hindsight we can see that it wasn't necessary, but they didn't know that at the time. And once you start a war, even with the best of intentions, lots of terrible things are going to happen.

It's one thing to be a Monday morning quarterback and criticize the decision with hindsight, it's another to be the judge and jury of the morality of it. Morality is subjective, just like sound quality. The most terrible things are done by men who think they have the 'moral right' because they are completely untroubled by their conscience.

I quite agree, but at the same time I think that those in power were pretty aware of the consequences of going half way around the world all in the name of keeping people free from communism. Even the US veterans I met, one or two high ranking ones were of that opinion at the time, not in hindsight.

The veterans were there in a charity basis trying support ex Vietcong and their families to build new and better lives. It was good to see, both sides realising they were caught up in something rather nasty and out of their control or influence at the time.

I just wonder how easy it would be for a current day power to utilise modern tech to rise up against others, in comparison to back then.


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[struth]

I quite agree, but at the same time I think that those in power were pretty aware of the consequences of going half way around the world all in the name of keeping people free from communism. Even the US veterans I met, one or two high ranking ones were of that opinion at the time, not in hindsight.

The veterans were there in a charity basis trying support ex Vietcong and their families to build new and better lives. It was good to see, both sides realising they were caught up in something rather nasty and out of their control or influence at the time.

I just wonder how easy it would be for a current day power to utilise modern tech to rise up against others, in comparison to back then.


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depends on the battlefield, but modern tech is hard to beat, although in end you still need guys on the ground to mop up. The way the Yanks went about it, they were always going to lose. The British tried to tell them it was a slow hearts and minds thing that would work but the US had no patience... also their generals had a lot of hardware they were just itching to use.

So evil?, overall no, but they didnt have Vietnam's best interests at heart either. Their morbid fear of communism was at heart of it

[Joe]

All agreed. My argument is that the conflict happened not because America was/is 'evil' but because they thought they were doing what was necessary. With hindsight we can see that it wasn't necessary, but they didn't know that at the time. And once you start a war, even with the best of intentions, lots of terrible things are going to happen.

It was, of course, a French war to begin with. Graham Greene's 'The Quiet American' (1955) is an excellent novel set at the time when the French were about to quit and the US intervention was about to begin.

[Macca]

It was, of course, a French war to begin with. Graham Greene's 'The Quiet American' (1955) is an excellent novel set at the time when the French were about to quit and the US intervention was about to begin.

Yes, that's good book, the film was a bit disappointing though.

The French might have been doing the fighting in Vietnam but the yanks were paying for it. It was the price of keeping France out of the Soviet orbit. Blackmail, essentially.

[Barry]

Ok having actually been to Vietnam and spoken with people who were caught up in the war, and next generation and both Vietcong and USA vets, I will pass comment.

First the general consensus from both sides it was a war that should have never happened, Vietnam ended up being the pawn between two major powers Russia and USA who didn’t give a f**k about Vietnam, all they wanted to do was flex their political muscles and show who was the super power.

Vietnam went down the communist route to try and dig itself out of severe poverty, which has been seen in several other countries. The people of Vietnam still generally revere Ho Chi Min as a man who had the people at his heart, irrespective of their politics.

The vets view in general was that the Vietnamese saw the US army etc as the invader of their country irrespective of what politicians said from either side, and this meant that the Vietnamese generally felt they should defend their country.

The USA vets said of the USA troops realised what the situation was, apart from some die hard red necks who were as a result promoted up the ranks whether capable or not. So it was not where most wanted to be, also they felt it was immoral, the majority of the Vietcong were unarmed with modern weapons, they resorted to digging booby trap pits, medieval hand made weapons, and poison darts etc, all used in guerrilla ware fare, and living down tunnels. Later on they got limited supplies arms from Russia.

A higher ranking US vet told me that 6 months before they left they were ordered to agent orange the Mekong Delta and then naphalm it, even though they knew they were already preparing to pull out. Quite dishonourable, and shameful in his view, this continued till the day they left.

So to sum up a disgusting war which was completely unfounded, two meddling supper powers getting involved in another country, how many times have we seen this.

By the way if you go to Vietnam today even though it is communist, it is in my view one of the most capitalist countries in the world I have ever visited. Also the people are lovely.

More or less my impression when I visited Vietnam 25 years ago.

[Joe]

Yes, that's good book, the film was a bit disappointing though.

The French might have been doing the fighting in Vietnam but the yanks were paying for it. It was the price of keeping France out of the Soviet orbit. Blackmail, essentially.

I thought it was because Vietnam had been a French colony and they were fighting to keep control, as in Algeria, but it's not something I know much about, apart from the US anti-war protests in the late '60s.

[Mikeandvan]

No-one has 'the right' to do anything but that doesn't stop them. 'The right' to do something only exists on paper and in the minds of armchair commentators.

Did the Americans say 'Let's get involved in Vietnam, it will fuck up the Vietnamese and fuck us up as well', or did they say 'We need to get involved in Vietnam otherwise we are going to end up fucked up.'?

Everyone always goes into everything with the best of intentions. Even the Nazis. Judging with hindsight is easy.

Funny thing is it was capitalism in the region 'the Asian tiger' that fucked up America, it should have encouraged Communism all along!! America now = No manufacturing jobs and a clown as president. Asian economy = Booming, with 'communist' China at the helm, on the brink of having the world's biggest GDP.

[Macca]

I thought it was because Vietnam had been a French colony and they were fighting to keep control, as in Algeria, but it's not something I know much about, apart from the US anti-war protests in the late '60s.

It had been a French colony. As you're aware part of the price we paid for American help was the breaking up of the Empire. But the French told the Yanks that if they wanted them on their side and not cosying up to the Soviets, they would need to help them re-establish control in their colonies. The US wasn't happy about it but they agreed to bankroll it. After Dien Bien Phu popular support in France for the war dropped sharply so they gave it up and the Americans went in. Although it was just special forces advisors to begin with.

Lots of good books on it but I'd recommend 'A Bright Shining Lie' by Neil Sheehan as being the best one I've read if you want a full understanding of how the USA got sucked in and all the many ways they went wrong after that. Needless to say none of it was as simple and straightforward as some people tell it. It's a long book but very well written, not a difficult read.

[Macca]

Funny thing is it was capitalism in the region 'the Asian tiger' that fucked up America, it should have encouraged Communism all along!! .

Ha ha - yes probably true in retrospect plus the cost of the war was astronomical and damaged their economy very badly.

[Mikeandvan]

Is Trump right to pull out of Syria and apparently 'abandon' the Kurds? My instincts tell me yes, the middle east is very complicated and tribal, best leave them to it.