+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 25

Thread: Cartridge for a Current amplifying phono stage?

  1. #1
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Durham - UK

    Posts: 1,729
    I'm Ken.

    Default Cartridge for a Current amplifying phono stage?

    Has anyone got experience of a cartridge that is a good match for a current amplifying Phono Stage, like my Aqvox 2ci II ?

    It has to have a healthy current output, which rules out most AT cartridges including my 33PTG II which outputs 0.03mA and the ART9 (similar output) which was on my radar. Hana, Benz, ZYX and Shelter models are a similar value. All these will work with my Phono Stage, but never perform at their best. My 33PTG for instance sounds dull and lacks dynamics, yet in my voltage amplifying Phono stage sounds great ( All other cartridge requirements, gain, compliance etc accepted).

    According to a Stereophile review, of the Mr Labs Vera Phono Stage, which is a current amplifier. The Ortofon Quintet Black S is a good match and this outputs 0.06mA, if you use ohms law and divide the output voltage by the cartridge internal impedance. So this figure and higher is my starting point. Quite a few of the Ortofon's seem to fit the bill and also Goldring. I've listed a few below.

    Ortofon
    Quintet Black S = 0.06
    Quintet Bronze = 0.06
    Quintet Blue = 0.071
    Cadenza Blue = 0.1
    Old Rondo Bronze = 0.083
    Old MC20 Supreme = 0.1 I have one of these, the suspension is starting to sag but it might be a stop gap solution.
    Kontrapunkt A/B/C/H = 0.09 Maybe a retipped one.

    Goldring
    Eroica LX = 0.063
    Elite = 0.063
    Ethos = 0.125

    Koetsu Black = 0.12

    The Cadenza Blue and Koetsu Black are out of my price range and are for reference only.
    So anyone got experience of any of the rest, or an alternative, used with a current amplifier?

  2. #2
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 24,092
    I'm openingabottleofwine.

    Default

    Are your figures based on the cartridge output voltage quoted at 1cm/s?

    The EMT TSD15N or XSD15, have an output voltage at 1cm/s of 0.21mV and a coil resistance of 24 Ohm. At a typical transverse velocity of 5cm/s, the current output will be 0.04mA or 40uV.
    Barry

  3. #3
    Join Date: May 2012

    Location: London

    Posts: 429
    I'm Spartacus.

    Default

    Ken, my AT33PTG does not sound dull or lacking in dynamics with my Aqvox 2ci and sounded more dynamic than the Quintet Blue. Have you played around with the gain settings?
    Cheers, Jeff

  4. #4
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Durham - UK

    Posts: 1,729
    I'm Ken.

    Default

    Hi Barry

    Vout all based on 1kHz @ 5cm/sec.

    So the cartridge you quote is only slightly higher output than my 33PTG and two thirds of the Quintet Black.

    The Quintet Black has twice the current output of my 33PTG, the Goldring Ethos has four times the current.
    It's a different ball game when you look at Current output as opposed to Voltage.
    I'm surprised more manufacturers don't go this route, as MC cartridges are balanced devices producing healthy current. Plus current amplifiers do not need load matching. I know Dynavector used to make one.

  5. #5
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Durham - UK

    Posts: 1,729
    I'm Ken.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rubber duck View Post
    Ken, my AT33PTG does not sound dull or lacking in dynamics with my Aqvox 2ci and sounded more dynamic than the Quintet Blue. Have you played around with the gain settings?
    Yes, my 33PTG requires the input gain to be at quite a high level, +8dB
    Are you using them Balanced ?

  6. #6
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: London

    Posts: 674
    I'm James.

    Default

    Dynavector made (makes?) stages like this so presumably their range includes models suitable for such loading?
    As far as I can tell gain is only one issue here, another must be the effect on the cantilever compliance due to the MC coils which will act as solenoids resisting movement as they now have to dissipate the power generated. How much of an issue this is, and it's effect on sonic presentation I have no clue though

    Sent from my BLA-L09 using Tapatalk

  7. #7
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Durham - UK

    Posts: 1,729
    I'm Ken.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jazid View Post
    Dynavector made (makes?) stages like this so presumably their range includes models suitable for such loading?
    As far as I can tell gain is only one issue here, another must be the effect on the cantilever compliance due to the MC coils which will act as solenoids resisting movement as they now have to dissipate the power generated. How much of an issue this is, and it's effect on sonic presentation I have no clue though

    Sent from my BLA-L09 using Tapatalk
    Hi James
    Issues of the total gain chain or compliance matching of Arms are not being considered and like I said, accepted that they exist.

    The way my Phono stage works is a bit different to most and the input gain adjusters are used to match the cartridges current output, to the ideal level required by the rest of the Phono circuit. The input adjustment is up to +12dB but makes only a moderate difference to the actual output level of the Phono stage and the control acts more like a tone control. You can hear when you hit the sweet spot, too high and the cartridge sounds brighter and crisper, too low and it sounds warmer, but softer edged. The sweet spot and position of the controls will vary dependant upon the cartridges output and to a large degree on personal preference. It's a bit like load matching on a conventional voltage amplifying Phono stage, but with much more audible differences. If you wind any form of gain up, especially at the front of the chain, you are more likely to have distortion, background noise etc. So I think matching the cartridges Current output to the phono stages optimum requirement, where only a moderate amount of adjustment is required, is the key. That's the theory I'm looking to test.

  8. #8
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 24,092
    I'm openingabottleofwine.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwin View Post
    Hi Barry

    Vout all based on 1kHz @ 5cm/sec.

    So the cartridge you quote is only slightly higher output than my 33PTG and two thirds of the Quintet Black.

    The Quintet Black has twice the current output of my 33PTG, the Goldring Ethos has four times the current.
    It's a different ball game when you look at Current output as opposed to Voltage.
    I'm surprised more manufacturers don't go this route, as MC cartridges are balanced devices producing healthy current. Plus current amplifiers do not need load matching. I know Dynavector used to make one.
    Yes, I agree my suggestion does not compare that well with those you quote, but I was only trying to establish your measurement criterion.

    I certainly agree with you that all cartridges are essentially balanced sources, but I would question whether they should be regarded as current sources. But if you want an MC with a high current output, then you need to look at those having a very low internal coil resistance; though low coil resistance often means coils having fewer turns and hence low voltage output. But some MCs can have a reasonable voltage output, yet have low coil resistance, for example the Transfiguration 'Orpheus' has an output (at 3.45cm/s, lateral and vertical) of 0.48mV with a coil resistance of 2.5 Ohm, or a current output of 0.192mA.
    Barry

  9. #9
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Durham - UK

    Posts: 1,729
    I'm Ken.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Yes, I agree my suggestion does not compare that well with those you quote, but I was only trying to establish your measurement criterion.

    I certainly agree with you that all cartridges are essentially balanced sources, but I would question whether they should be regarded as current sources. But if you want an MC with a high current output, then you need to look at those having a very low internal coil resistance; though low coil resistance often means coils having fewer turns and hence low voltage output. But some MCs can have a reasonable voltage output, yet have low coil resistance, for example the Transfiguration 'Orpheus' has an output (at 3.45cm/s, lateral and vertical) of 0.48mV with a coil resistance of 2.5 Ohm, or a current output of 0.192mA.
    The Opheus is expensive but as you mention, very strong output. I was looking at the Axia S last week, one came up used, 0.1mA output, which is pretty good. Seems like Transfiguration have vanished though, I looked at 6 of the dealers named on their website and non of them list Transfiguration as a brand or have the Axia S listed if you do a search. I don't know anyone that sells them, their address is only 14 miles from me though.

    I think I will drop my Ortofon MC20 Supreme into my TT and see how that works, it has sagging suspension, but hasn't gone yet and has a 0.1mA output (0.5mV/5ohm). It might be worth giving it a try to see what happens. I will have to get my system working first, the loud speakers are undergoing a cabinet rebuild and I've got to the veneering stage.

  10. #10
    Join Date: Aug 2012

    Location: Hartlepool UK

    Posts: 1,556
    I'm Alan.

    Default

    Ken
    I never owned the quintet Black but I set one up in Petch's turntable so had it in my system for a day or so
    Personally I did not rate it at all dull and lifeless IMO, dont think Steve kept it long either as he also didnt like it
    .

    Alan
    Turntable - Garrard 401/Jelco 750L/Ortofon Kontrapunkt B, Pioneer PLC 590, SME 3009/2 , Denon DL103R - DIY Paradise Phono stage - Reel 2 Reel Studer A810, Otari MX55,Tascam BR20, Revox A77, B77, PR99, TEAC X1000 & 3440, Technics RS1500 - Digital HTPC / Young Dac - Preamp - DIY B4, 821, Power Amp's DIY Voyager Mono Block, Speakers Tannoy precision 6.4 / Wilmslow Kit Volt BM220.8 / Scanspeak D2905/9500

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •