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Thread: Upgrade or just spending

  1. #1
    Join Date: Sep 2018

    Location: Estonia

    Posts: 94
    I'm Veiko.

    Default Upgrade or just spending

    Hello!

    About half a year ago I bought Onkyo TX-8220 stereo receiver (275 eur).
    Then I realized I should have bought an amplifier.

    Amplifier will be without radio, bluetooth, digital inputs and DAC,
    but they only add price, tempt for compromises in quality and yes -
    I don't even want them!

    Therefore I have set my eye on this Onkyo integrated amplifier: A-9030 (299 eur).

    But the spec sheets are hard for me to understand.
    I ask for advice, will it be step forward worthy of mention?
    Here is some more information:

    The biggest difference I notice is with THD, but it is also presented differently:

    TX8220 - 100 W/Ch Stereo Power (6 Ω, 1 kHz, 10%, 1 Channel Driven, IEC), 0.08% (20 Hz-20 kHz, half power)

    A-9030 - 65 W/Ch (8 Ω, 1 kHz, 0.08% THD, 2 Channels Driven, IEC), 0.08% (1 kHz, 1 W)

    I do realize it would be correct to display values for 20-20000 Hz, but why they use such
    mess, god only knows. To me these stats are basically incomprehensible, it may be my own fault, of course.

    I use Elac Debut B6.2 speakers in a medium listening space.

    Here's a full product comparison from Onkyo home page.

    https://www.eu.onkyo.com/en/product-...ts=23319,31890


    Thank you so much!
    Veiko

  2. #2
    Join Date: Feb 2013

    Location: W Lothian

    Posts: 99,005
    I'm Grant.

    Default

    i wouldnt be too worried re harmonic distortion. modern amps are all pretty well sorted. They are probably the same circuit with one just outputting a bit more. no real need to change unless you feel the need
    Regards,
    Grant .... ؠ ......Don't be such a big girl's blouse

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  3. #3
    Join Date: Sep 2018

    Location: Estonia

    Posts: 94
    I'm Veiko.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by struth View Post
    i wouldnt be too worried re harmonic distortion. modern amps are all pretty well sorted. They are probably the same circuit with one just outputting a bit more. no real need to change unless you feel the need
    But can you find any logic in this behavior on the spec sheets other than hiding the weaknesses,
    and looking good for wide audience?

    And yet I can not shake the feeling, that amplifiers perform better than receivers.
    I have heard that receivers tend to sound thin.

  4. #4
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: The Black Country

    Posts: 6,089
    I'm Alan.

    Default

    The 8220 is quoting 0.08% at half power so that would be at 50W.
    The 9030 is quoting 0.08% at 65W, so very little real difference.

    If you want simplification go for it but I doubt the sound will be much different.

  5. #5
    Join Date: Sep 2018

    Location: Estonia

    Posts: 94
    I'm Veiko.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebottle View Post
    The 8220 is quoting 0.08% at half power so that would be at 50W.
    The 9030 is quoting 0.08% at 65W, so very little real difference.

    If you want simplification go for it but I doubt the sound will be much different.
    Thank you, that is good to know.
    But how do you come to such conclusion?
    I can understand the 8220 part, but for 9030 the specs seem to be limited to only 1KhZ and to 1W output.
    The way I have understood is that these 1KhZ and 1W values are smth quite useless and vague, since
    the sound spectrum runs from 20-20 000 Hz, and definitely more power is used.
    But You seem confident that this 0,08 applies also to 65W. Why?

  6. #6
    Join Date: Apr 2018

    Location: South East Cornwall

    Posts: 322
    I'm Dominic.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sansiiro View Post
    Thank you, that is good to know.
    But how do you come to such conclusion?
    I can understand the 8220 part, but for 9030 the specs seem to be limited to only 1KhZ and to 1W output.
    The way I have understood is that these 1KhZ and 1W values are smth quite useless and vague, since
    the sound spectrum runs from 20-20 000 Hz, and definitely more power is used.
    But You seem confident that this 0,08 applies also to 65W. Why?

    Any specifications you may care to look at Veiko are pretty much meaningless, as one amplifier with a high specification may not necessarily sound "better" than one with a lesser specification. Much depends on the load (speaker) that the amplifier sees rather than a fixed resistive or impedance value. The real world is far more complex than that.

    Alan is an electronics designer so he knows how to calculate amplifier power ratings and I am a hi-fi reviewer who spends no time at all reading specifications. The sound is far more meaningful to me than any quoted specifications.
    CD player = Marantz CD6006
    DAC/pre = Rotel RC 1572
    Power amp = ADA PF201
    Speaks = Quadral Chromium Style 6

  7. #7
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: The Black Country

    Posts: 6,089
    I'm Alan.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nonuffin View Post
    The sound is far more meaningful to me than any quoted specifications.
    I totally agree with this statement

    @Sansiiro, apologies for implying (or rather stating) that the 0.08% applies at 65W, that was my error.
    The 1KHz specification is usually stated as a 'common reference' and at 1W to establish a base line distortion figure.

    The distortion figure usually rises slowly with power output then rapidly when approaching maximum output.
    As the 65W receiver output figure is 15W above the half power figure of the amplifier I made the assumption that the distortion at 50W would still be quite low, so probably comparable.

    Being the same manufacturer the circuit design is almost certainly very similar, with a greater supply voltage in the receiver to enable 100W into 6 ohms.

  8. #8
    Join Date: Apr 2016

    Location: Gravesend and France

    Posts: 1,498
    I'm paul.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sansiiro View Post
    But can you find any logic in this behavior on the spec sheets other than hiding the weaknesses,
    and looking good for wide audience?

    And yet I can not shake the feeling, that amplifiers perform better than receivers.
    I have heard that receivers tend to sound thin.
    you heard wrong. I have had all manner of good valves amps, not so many solid state but my vintage Sony receiver has beat them all and is my end game amp. I just hope it keeps going as I've no interest to change it.
    Bakoon 13r Denon DP80 Stax UA-70 Shure Ultra 500 in a Martin Bastin body with jico stylus, project ds2 digital Rullit aero 8 field coils in tqwt speakers

    Office system, DIY CSS fullrange speakers with aurum cantus G2 ribbons yulong dac Sony STR6055 receiver Jvc QL-A51 direct drive turntable, Leema sub. JVC Z4S cart is in the house

    Garage system another Sony receiver, cassette deck


    System components are subject to change without warning and at the discretion of the owner.

  9. #9
    Join Date: Jun 2015

    Location: London/Durham

    Posts: 6,869
    I'm Lawrence.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by paulf-2007 View Post
    you heard wrong. I have had all manner of good valves amps, not so many solid state but my vintage Sony receiver has beat them all and is my end game amp. I just hope it keeps going as I've no interest to change it.
    There's a difference between a vintage receiver which is basically an often decent amp with a tuner built in, and a modern 7.1 channel amp which as well as having 7 or so channels to potentiality output at once has a dac and a load of digital dsp to process as well as potentially hdmi upscaling etc to handle. All the latter will reduce the quality of the 2 channel amplification purely on a cost basis before considering the electrical effect of all that circuitry. Having said that the dsp can often provide a pleasant effect, especially with a centre and surround speakers using Dolby digital ii in music mode.

    Sent from my BLN-L21 using Tapatalk

  10. #10
    Join Date: Jun 2015

    Location: London/Durham

    Posts: 6,869
    I'm Lawrence.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sansiiro View Post
    Hello!

    About half a year ago I bought Onkyo TX-8220 stereo receiver (275 eur).
    Then I realized I should have bought an amplifier.

    Amplifier will be without radio, bluetooth, digital inputs and DAC,
    but they only add price, tempt for compromises in quality and yes -
    I don't even want them!

    Therefore I have set my eye on this Onkyo integrated amplifier: A-9030 (299 eur).

    But the spec sheets are hard for me to understand.
    I ask for advice, will it be step forward worthy of mention?
    Here is some more information:

    The biggest difference I notice is with THD, but it is also presented differently:

    TX8220 - 100 W/Ch Stereo Power (6 Ω, 1 kHz, 10%, 1 Channel Driven, IEC), 0.08% (20 Hz-20 kHz, half power)

    A-9030 - 65 W/Ch (8 Ω, 1 kHz, 0.08% THD, 2 Channels Driven, IEC), 0.08% (1 kHz, 1 W)

    I do realize it would be correct to display values for 20-20000 Hz, but why they use such
    mess, god only knows. To me these stats are basically incomprehensible, it may be my own fault, of course.

    I use Elac Debut B6.2 speakers in a medium listening space.

    Here's a full product comparison from Onkyo home page.

    https://www.eu.onkyo.com/en/product-...ts=23319,31890


    Thank you so much!
    Veiko
    Seriously if they're quoting 100watts power at 6 ohms with only 1 channel driven out of a 7 channel amp and at 10% distortion that's the biggest p1sstake for a quoted power number I've seen. Well, it's up there with the PMPO numbers Dixons used to use when selling Matsui music centres anyway.

    Sent from my BLN-L21 using Tapatalk

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