Can you ever go back to belt drive?

[Marco]

Also, let's rewind to Andrew's OP:

Trouble is, even though I have a Lingo 3 on the Linn, I'm missing the rock steady pitch of direct drive.

So are you saying he's imagining it, too? Extensive experience tells me the complete opposite, and that LP12s, in particular (but in general all low-mass belt-drives), suffer as described, compared with quality direct-drive designs.

Therefore, I believe that what Andrew is hearing is a very real phenomenon.

Marco.

[YNWaN]

Marco, you seem to be angling for a fight but I’m afraid I’m not interested. You and Andrew are free to believe whatever you wan’t, I’ll leave it at that.

Just for clarification, the measurements I referred to earlier were not carried out on an LP12.

[Marco]

Lol - angling for a fight? What on earth gave you that impression?

I'm simply defending my POV, albeit it robustly, as is my style, and the opinions I've formed on the matter, over the last 20 years or so. Just because I don't agree with you, and believe the opposite, doesn't mean I want a fight. Or should I just simply roll over and play ball?

Marco.

[Marco]

Just for clarification, the measurements I referred to earlier were not carried out on an LP12.

Ok then, so what you're *really* saying, and which I would agree with 100% (as I'm in no position to dispute it) is that the measurements you've carried out, in relation to the effects of stylus drag, are only applicable and relevant to the turntables (and partnering arms/cartridges) you've tested. And that's absolutely fine

However, I'd contend that if you carried out the same measurements on an LP12, or indeed many other similar belt-drive T/Ts, especially using high-mass arms and/or heavy cartridges, tracking at high VTFs, in comparison with what would be achieved with the same, fitted on quality D/Ds, you might get a different result.

Marco.

[allthingsanalogue]

Also, let's rewind to Andrew's OP:



So are you saying he's imagining it, too? Extensive experience tells me the complete opposite, and that LP12s, in particular (but in general all low-mass belt-drives), suffer as described, compared with quality direct-drive designs.

Therefore, I believe that what Andrew is hearing is a very real phenomenon.

Marco.

After I sold my modded SL1210 and bought a Gyro SE, I quickly noticed W&F, I even tried an upgraded psu, two belts on a double pulley and nothing fixed it. I sold it a few weeks later and bought the LP12 in 2016. This was much better, however I then bought and an SL1200G and was actually quickly disappointed in the quality of sustained notes on the LP12 for double the price but due to financial reasons had to sell the SL1200G.

I'm now browsing my old yt videos and realise that comparing them to the LP12 the Technics does indeed have better pitch and that's a clincher for me, I've never been happy with any cassette deck for this reason so must be extra sensitive to it.

I have a yt video of my previous 1200G running, here is a link. Please delete if needed.

https://youtu.be/0PzNrcB3Iks That just sounds right to me.

[allthingsanalogue]

Therefore, given that the effect in question is annoying to his ears, IMO, there is little point in him pursuing the purchase of another belt-drive turntable, only to be confronted yet again (to a greater or lesser extent) by the same problem, and in turn for him to waste more money without addressing the real issue.

*That* is my point, and something I think he should carefully consider before deciding on his next move

Marco.

Agreed

[allthingsanalogue]

There was mention in an earlier post if one turntable being better than another with off-centre pressings. With the best will in the world this can’t actually be the case - irrespective of the turntables merits* it can’t overcome an inherent problem with the record, nor exaggerate it.

* Yes, I do know about the auto centring deck that Nakamichi made.

—————-

I think it’s also worth pointing out that use of the piano pedals can lead to effects that can be easily confused with record wow.

Hi Mark

What I actually meant by this comment was that it's as if it's making the W&F I already 'think' I can hear worse, like multiplying it. Also the way the arm is being pulled in and out having more of an effect on the suspension so making it more aggravated by the excessive movement or increasing stylus drag therefore slowing the deck down?

I also listen to a lot of electronic music where some sounds have perfect pitch and so can be frustrating when I compare them with a digital version of the same song.

Andrew

[AJSki2fly]

After I sold my modded SL1210 and bought a Gyro SE, I quickly noticed W&F, I even tried an upgraded psu, two belts on a double pulley and nothing fixed it. I sold it a few weeks later and bought the LP12 in 2016. This was much better, however I then bought and an SL1200G and was actually quickly disappointed in the quality of sustained notes on the LP12 for double the price but due to financial reasons had to sell the SL1200G.

I'm now browsing my old yt videos and realise that comparing them to the LP12 the Technics does indeed have better pitch and that's a clincher for me, I've never been happy with any cassette deck for this reason so must be extra sensitive to it.

I have a yt video of my previous 1200G running, here is a link. Please delete if needed.

https://youtu.be/0PzNrcB3Iks

I am not surprised you noticed W&F on the Gyrodec SE, I also had one and after much playing around and using the now infamous Pete's Pylon's reduced the problem greatlyamd I measure the improvement. The prime issue with the Michell TT's is the suspension system which is conical springs and the the motor being not mounted on the chassis, the parts that hold the springs allow the chassis to float in the wind not only vertically but also horizontally, so as the belt move the plate the chassis is susceptible to twisting hence W&F.

I have now moved to a Void TT, yes belt drive but much more stable due to its 3 motors, and also has a nicer tone to it than a Gyrodec, to my ears anyway.

[allthingsanalogue]

I am not surprised you noticed W&F on the Gyrodec SE, I also had one and after much playing around and using the now infamous Pete's Pylon's reduced the problem greatlyamd I measure the improvement. The prime issue with the Michell TT's is the suspension system which is conical springs and the the motor being not mounted on the chassis, the parts that hold the springs allow the chassis to float in the wind not only vertically but also horizontally, so as the belt move the plate the chassis is susceptible to twisting hence W&F.

I have now moved to a Void TT, yes belt drive but much more stable due to its 3 motors, and also has a nicer tone to it than a Gyrodec, to my ears anyway.

Tom Evans lent me a psu for my Gyro and he described the Gyro as 'it's as stable as stirring a wooden spoon in porridge'!

[allthingsanalogue]

Apparently the new Lingo 4 motor has so little torque that it slows down drastically when even placing or taking a record on or off the platter. That would worry me even more!