CD transports - do they matter?

[Phil Bishop]

This thread is similar to one I have just read on digital replay - reality or epiphany or something like that - very interesting.

Just recently, I have been reading heated debates as to does a CD transport matter that much - the DAC is of overriding importance. Surely not? Of course, this all fits in with the ideas/debates of using a computer as source.

So to test the theory, I went out and bought the cheapest CD/DVD player I could find that had a digital output - £15 from Asda (£15 for a CD/DVD player - I ask you!). I then tried it through my acclaimed Beresford DAC versus the modified Arcam Alpha 5 transport I am using (same transport as used in some Naim CDPs I believe). Can I tell a difference in sound quality - I am trying, but I can't so far. Is it my ears? Anyone else tried this?

[BajaGringo]

I think that you are touching on one of the core issues in the digital debate. I am having the same problem in being able to hear a difference. I recently had this same discussion with a friend who thinks that we are breaking some un-written audio commandment in even making that statement. Maybe I am just an old fart and my hearing has degraded. If you think about it purely in theory it makes sense.

But what do I know?

[alb]

Phil.

There may be a difference in long term reliability and build quality, but soundwise i have struggled to hear much difference between transports.

You might never convince those with a vested interest in selling upmarket gear, or those who believe that good sound only comes at a price.

My wife uses a £16 DVD player with her system, and it's capable of good results. As a transport it sounds similar to my Pioneer DVD except that Pioneer doesn't vibrate in use.

[Marco]

Al,

I don't doubt that there would be little or no difference between two DVD ROM transport mechanisms playing CD because they will largely have been born from the same universal parts bin, and neither is designed to optimise an audio-only format such as CD. Results will likely be very different, however, when comparing a high quality dedicated Red Book CD transport to your DVD player.

Sonic differences between transport mechanisms most certainly do exist, and in the right context can be very significant. However when doing the comparison you need to use an appropriate reference otherwise you'll be unlikely to hear any difference.

Most CDP (and DVD) transport mechanisms these days are much of a much-ness - it's only when you hear something that's been seriously over-engineered down to the last detail using the highest quality bespoke parts and components (like, say, the TEAC VRDS-Neo used on the top Esoteric players and standalone transport units or the designs from the Japanese big boys of the late 80s/early 90s) that real differences become truly apparent.

Have a look at this link for some info:

http://www.teac.com/esoteric/Disc_tr..._VRDS-Neo.html

From the website:

ESOTERIC® disc players use proprietary disc transport systems, each designed to reduce noise, vibration, tracking errors and error correction.

That's basically it, highlighted above, and why bespoke top-notch CD-only transport mechanisms offer superior performance to the mass-produced plastic affairs used mainly these days, but it will cost you as serious engineering quality doesn't come cheap! Transport quality is one of the main reasons (along with NOS chipsets) why hi-end players from CD's 'heyday' (late 80s to mid 90s) sound quite different to most of what's produced today at virtually any price. Of course all this goes out of the window when lossless streaming of the necessary data is used to good effect with a computer.

I'll bring my Sony transport (and DAC) along to the forthcoming Chester fest, and you can compare it to your DVD player using the same DAC. I promise you it will be an enlightening experience

Good thread this, chaps. I will contribute in more detail later!

Marco.

[Phil Bishop]

Thanks for all your contributions chaps, most enlightening. Marco makes the point that highly engineered transports can make a difference, but as he says one is entering a niche high end market which I, for one, can't afford (and don't feel at present inclined)to enter. So far, the message for me is if one is in the mid-level CDP market, maybe buy a cheapy old CDP off ebay for £50 (an old Arcam or whatever) and spend the decent money on the best DAC you can afford. Then you can tinker with different DACs, etc. But my interest is now taken with the lossless streaming/computer idea/arguement, but I want to hear a demo first.....

[alb]

Yes Marco, i would be disappointed if a serious CD transport didn't provide some audible benefit.
My comments were mostly aimed at Phils cheap DVD.

I know the CD Pro transport is superior to the Pioneer, hopefully Tony Moore will bring his along to Chesterfest. I might be tempted by one of these myself, but for the time being i like the convenience of being able to play DVDaudio.
I think the Chester meet would be an ideal opportunity for a spot of mixing and matching of CD players, amps and speakers. This has always been difficult to achieve at Owston due to the large number attending and limited time.
It's good to hear peoples stuff in the context of their own system, but it doesn't always give you much idea of the capabilities or compatibility of the individual components.
Looking forward to hearing some different equipment, sometimes it's a much needed reality check.

As a DIYer on a budget, the idea of spending large amounts of money is an alien concept, and this sometimes shows in my comments. Despite that I do keep an open mind to most things and am happy to be educated.

[Marco]

Thanks for all your contributions chaps, most enlightening. Marco makes the point that highly engineered transports can make a difference, but as he says one is entering a niche high end market which I, for one, can't afford (and don't feel at present inclined)to enter.

Phil, you can also pick up near mint second-hand examples of hi-end Japanese CDPs from the late 80s/early 90s such as my Sony X-777ES for around £450 (which incidentally weighs almost 20kg). This will quite simply outperform any other CD transport currently on the market, save perhaps the Esoteric players using VRDS-Neo. You can also still get the appropriate laser mechanism in the unlikely event that one should fail.

I get the feeling, though, from the sheer quality of its construction that mine will probably outlive me! Pride of ownership value is so much higher with quality equipment such as this, especially when you feel how silky smooth the drawer opens and closes with a gentle 'swish' every time you load a CD, compared to the noisy rattling monstrosities produced so often these days, and it reads the table of contents almost instantaneously, too

Here's a picture of the DAS-R1 DAC I'm using (I used to have the R1 transport but now use the X-777ES shown below in the second link):

http://www.thevintageknob.org/SONY/s...DPR1DASR1.html

X-777ES:

http://www.thevintageknob.org/SONY/s...CDPX777ES.html

They don't make 'em like they used to!!

Marco.

[lurcher]

One option:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...hreadid=120229

[Marco]

As a DIYer on a budget, the idea of spending large amounts of money is an alien concept, and this sometimes shows in my comments. Despite that I do keep an open mind to most things and am happy to be educated.

I appreciate that.

Like I said, Al, you don't need to spend a fortune. Second-hand top-notch Sonys, Marantz, etc from the right era are the way to go. In this instance Ebay (probably Germany or Holland) is your friend

I'm looking forward to the Chester fest. I (with the help of some friends) should be able to bring some interesting kit along.

Marco.

[Phil Bishop]

Marco, Very interesting....of course I went straight on ebay and looked for the Sony transport...none currently selling. Can you give some other models for Sony/Marantz so I can keep an eye? The beauty of ebay, of course, is one can try these things and then, if they don't work, sell on making generally only a small loss (or maybe even a profit!). Phil.