The end of May.

[Macca]

I agree with the latter, which I suspect sums up every proud English person here, and rightly so!

However, unfortunately the bad apples among your nation, especially some travelling abroad representing your country [and also racist groups and thugs/football hooligans who've tainted the meaning of your flag, including, for that matter, the Union Jack] has lead to a situation where flying the England flag is seen by some as meaning something quite different to, say, flying a Scottish or Welsh flag, which hasn't been misused in that way, and therefore isn't tainted.

As usual in life, as with so many things, the bad applies spoil things for everyone else!

Marco.

Best not to mention the overtly racist and violent Italian football supporters then? https://www.thelocal.it/20170509/rac...-racist-chants Every nation has a small minority of such people. Suggesting that it is confined to the English is disingenuous. Britain is the one of the most tolerant and least racist countries in the world. Which is possibly why our hooligans get so much attention. That and the desire to run down England and the English in general.

[tapid]

I agree with the latter, which I suspect sums up every proud English person here, and rightly so!

However, unfortunately the bad apples among your nation, especially some travelling abroad representing your country [and also racist groups and thugs/football hooligans who've tainted the meaning of your flag, including, for that matter, the Union Jack] has lead to a situation where flying the England flag is seen by some as meaning something quite different to, say, flying a Scottish or Welsh flag, which hasn't been misused in that way, and therefore isn't tainted.

As usual in life, as with so many things, the bad applies spoil things for everyone else!

Marco.

. Are you sure the welsh, Scots flags never been misused in a bad way Marco ..... Really ?

[walpurgis]

Never actually checked the BNP manifesto, I assume they have one. (some) People seem to view them with horror, but perhaps they have something useful to say?

[Macca]

Never actually checked the BNP manifesto, I assume they have one. (some) People seem to view them with horror, but perhaps they have something useful to say?

Manifestos are not worth the paper they are printed on. I know some BNP activists, they are unashamedly racists regardless of what their 'official policy' is.

[Macca]

And I mean racist in the correct meaning of the word, that is they believe in 'White supremacy.' It's nasty stuff.

[Marco]

. Are you sure the welsh, Scots flags never been misused in a bad way Marco ..... Really ?

Give me some examples then

Definitely not to the same extent as the English one. The NF did most of the damage to the English flag. It's largely the reason why flying that flag is seen by some as meaning something quite different from what it should do.

Marco.

[Marco]

Best not to mention the overtly racist and violent Italian football supporters then? https://www.thelocal.it/20170509/rac...-racist-chants Every nation has a small minority of such people. Suggesting that it is confined to the English is disingenuous. Britain is the one of the most tolerant and least racist countries in the world. Which is possibly why our hooligans get so much attention. That and the desire to run down England and the English in general.

What's Italy got to do with it? I'm talking about the UK. Every country in the world has its thugs and hooligans, so you could cite any one of them in that way. The argument was why the likes of a Welshman or Scotsman can be outwardly patriotic, fly flags etc, yet not come under attack for it in the same way as an Englishman doing the same thing - and sadly there are valid historical reasons for that.

Anyway, that's all I'm going to say now on the matter.

Marco.

[tapid]

Give me some examples then

Definitely not to the same extent as the English one. The NF did most of the damage to the English flag. It's largely the reason why flying that flag is seen by some as meaning something quite different from what it should do.

Marco.

Ah, youv e modified that good. I stopped going to football in the 80 s largely because of racism and the horrible songs about the Busby Babes etc, so I m in tune with you there.
Always been unpleasant people about and thats still the case.

[Marco]

If you have the evidence than present it. Just saying it is so is empty rhetoric and reminiscent of the tactics used in absolute dictatorships to discredit opposition.

What for you to do as you always do, like you did with Grant, and dismiss it as 'conjecture', or similar, simply because it doesn't suit your argument or belief system? Waste of time. It's my valid and carefully considered opinion, which I'm entitled to express however I see fit. I'm not asking you to agree, nor am I trying to change your mind or discredit you.

So learn to live with it.

Marco.

[Joe]

That's right. It's only okay to be patriotic if you are not English.

Of course not. Think of all the worst people in history (Hitler, Stalin, Mao. Amin, Mugabe); chances are they will at some point have wrapped themselves in the national flag to excuse/explain their excesses. Nationalism tends to be used as a stick with which to beat other nations; 'we're the best, so it's OK for us to do what we condemn other nations for doing'.

What Dr Johnson meant was, not that patriotism was bad, but that it was used by 'scoundrels' to disguise their ulterior motives. The context in unclear, but he used the phrase 'scoundrel' of Edmund Burke, whom Johnson regarded as a 'false patriot':

http://www.samueljohnson.com/qotw02q2.html#0630

A further argument that Johnson felt Burke a manipulative scoundrel comes from Boswell. Burke is a topic of discussion following the "last refuge" remark, and about Burke, Johnson says, "Sir, I do not say that he is not honest; but we have no reason to conclude from his political conduct that he is honest." And on another occasion, Johnson said of him, "In private life he is a very honest gentleman; but I will not allow him to be so in publick life. People may be honest, though they are doing wrong; that is between their Maker and them. But we, who are suffering by their pernicious conduct, are to destroy them. We are sure that [Burke] acts from interest. We know what his genuine principles were. They who allow their passions to confound the distinctions between right and wrong, are criminal. They may be convinced; but they have not come honestly by their conviction."