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Thread: Munich High End Show 2019

  1. #81
    Join Date: Jan 2009

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    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post

    You read it here first - Thorens are reissuing the TD124, though disappointingly as direct drive rather than as an idler. I didn't get an idea of price but it's sure to be cheaper than the 17k reissue of the Garrard 301. The Thorens reissue misses the point - even as a Thorens owner I see it as an ugly duckling compared to the Garrard 301 and 401, but it routinely out performs both especially in Schopper form. It's not the looks that made it popular. It's interesting that new owners SME went for the 301 as a reissue over the 401, again all other things being equal (and both can be extensively improved from standard) the 401 is the better machine, but the 301 is such a beauty ...


    Well beauty is in the eye of the beholder - I love the looks of the TD124/II and have three of them. The only 301 I like the look of is the original grey hammertone finish version.

    Is the Thorens shown in the picture the new direct drive offering? TD124/III ? And is the arm a revamped BD-12S or a revamped EMT 929? Both are, IMO, somewhat 'agricultural' in their construction and performance, and I would hope and expect the new arm to be much improved.
    Barry

  2. #82
    Join Date: Nov 2008

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    I'm Neil.

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    As SME, now own Loricraft, who own the Garrard name, not surprised to see that there will be a Garrard re issue. Also not surprised it will be a 301, rather than 401.

    Where will that leave Classic Record Company and their modernized Garrard's Which by virtue of having new plinths, new bearing, platters etc are not refurbished originals as Audio Grails are, but rather almost sort of what SME/Garrard will be doing. There are also several US companies doing similar to CRC, but more so.

    Law suits anyone?

    Watch this space
    Regards Neil

    System 1 (Living Room) : Vinyl: AMG Giro Turntable, AMG Giro Reference PSU, AMG 9W2 Tonearm, AMG Reference Armcable, Air Tight PC3 MC Cartridge PhonoStage: Passlabs Xono Digital: Esoteric P5 SACD Transport and Esoteric P 5 DAC, Sony HAP Z1es Digital File Player + Audioquest Jitter Bug, Computer Audio: Veracity Audio Mystra DAC + HP laptop + iFi Audio i Power, Wireworld Starlight USB + Audioquest Jitter Bug Tuner:Kenwood KT 7020 Cassette Tape: Nakamichi CR5e Amplification: Pre-Amplifier Meridian G02 Power-Amplifier Meridian G56 Speakers: Anthony Gallo Reference 3.1 Audio Cabling: Signal - Atlas Mavros, Audience AU24 Speaker - Atlas Mavros. Mains Cabling: Audience AU24, Analysis Plus, TCI. Mains Distribution: Mark Grant Distribution Blocks, Mark Grant DC Blocker Equipment Tables: Target Audio B series + Track Audio Isolation Spikes Isolation/ Platforms: Bright Star Audio Isonodes, BASE 01, SSC Platforms.

    System 2 (Music Room) : Vinyl: Turntable 1 Loricraft Garrard 401 Turntable + SME 5 Tonearm, Graham IC70 Tonearm Cable + VDH MC10 cartridge Turntable 2 Modified Technics 1200 turntable + Triplannar 7 Tonearm + VDH Frog Gold Cartridge + Paul Hynes SR7 PSU Turntable 3 SME Model 20 Turntable + Graham Phantom Tonearm + Graham IC70 Tonearm Cable, Ortofon MC5200 Cartridge PhonoStage: Balanced Audio Technology VK10se Digital: Moon Andromeda CD Player, Toshiba 9500 DVD Audio Player Computer Audio: AMR DP777 DAC + Dell Laptop + iFi Audio i Power + JKenny JKSPIDIF + Wireworld Starlight USB Tuners: Kenwood 8300 Tuner, Revox B760 Tuner, Leak Troughline Tuner + EAR Stereo Decoder, Magnum Dynalab Signal Sleuth FM Amplifier ReelToReel Tape: Revox B77 mk 2, Revox A77 mk3, Sony TC-377 Cassette Tape: Nakamichi DR10 Pre-Amplifier: Balanced Audio Technology VK52se Power-Amplifier: Music Reference RM200 mk1 Speakers: Anthony Gallo Reference 3.5 Audio Cabling: Signal - Audience AU24, Kimber KCAG, Audio Note ANVs, Barry Hunt Cables Speaker - XLO Type 6. Mains Cabling: Audience AU24, TCI. Mains Distribution: Mark Grant and Russ Andrews Equipment Tables: Clear Light Audio Aspekt Tacks Isolation/Platform: SSC, Bright Star Audio Isonodes, Naim Frame Record Cleaner: Hanns Audio


    System 3 (Bed Room) - CD Player Marantz CD7, Headphone Amplifier: Audio Valve RKV2 OTL Valve Headphones: Grado GS 1000, Sennheiser 560 Ovation2, Sennheiser 410SL

  3. #83
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

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    I'm Martin.

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    Would the patent on the original Garrard design still be active? Seems unlikely.
    Martin



    Current Lash Up:

    Technics SLP1200 CD Player * Nelson Pass DCB1 Pre amp / Krell KSA50S Power amp * JM Lab Electra 926 loudspeakers *


    'You fool! To think that your ape-brain could contain the full knowledge of the Krell!'

  4. #84
    Join Date: Nov 2008

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Would the patent on the original Garrard design still be active? Seems unlikely.
    Not sure, but I know Terry of Loricraft owns the trade name, and some design elements, what exactly I don't know. He bought all that from the company that bought the remains of Garrard. I can't recall who that is, someone in south America I think.
    Regards Neil

    System 1 (Living Room) : Vinyl: AMG Giro Turntable, AMG Giro Reference PSU, AMG 9W2 Tonearm, AMG Reference Armcable, Air Tight PC3 MC Cartridge PhonoStage: Passlabs Xono Digital: Esoteric P5 SACD Transport and Esoteric P 5 DAC, Sony HAP Z1es Digital File Player + Audioquest Jitter Bug, Computer Audio: Veracity Audio Mystra DAC + HP laptop + iFi Audio i Power, Wireworld Starlight USB + Audioquest Jitter Bug Tuner:Kenwood KT 7020 Cassette Tape: Nakamichi CR5e Amplification: Pre-Amplifier Meridian G02 Power-Amplifier Meridian G56 Speakers: Anthony Gallo Reference 3.1 Audio Cabling: Signal - Atlas Mavros, Audience AU24 Speaker - Atlas Mavros. Mains Cabling: Audience AU24, Analysis Plus, TCI. Mains Distribution: Mark Grant Distribution Blocks, Mark Grant DC Blocker Equipment Tables: Target Audio B series + Track Audio Isolation Spikes Isolation/ Platforms: Bright Star Audio Isonodes, BASE 01, SSC Platforms.

    System 2 (Music Room) : Vinyl: Turntable 1 Loricraft Garrard 401 Turntable + SME 5 Tonearm, Graham IC70 Tonearm Cable + VDH MC10 cartridge Turntable 2 Modified Technics 1200 turntable + Triplannar 7 Tonearm + VDH Frog Gold Cartridge + Paul Hynes SR7 PSU Turntable 3 SME Model 20 Turntable + Graham Phantom Tonearm + Graham IC70 Tonearm Cable, Ortofon MC5200 Cartridge PhonoStage: Balanced Audio Technology VK10se Digital: Moon Andromeda CD Player, Toshiba 9500 DVD Audio Player Computer Audio: AMR DP777 DAC + Dell Laptop + iFi Audio i Power + JKenny JKSPIDIF + Wireworld Starlight USB Tuners: Kenwood 8300 Tuner, Revox B760 Tuner, Leak Troughline Tuner + EAR Stereo Decoder, Magnum Dynalab Signal Sleuth FM Amplifier ReelToReel Tape: Revox B77 mk 2, Revox A77 mk3, Sony TC-377 Cassette Tape: Nakamichi DR10 Pre-Amplifier: Balanced Audio Technology VK52se Power-Amplifier: Music Reference RM200 mk1 Speakers: Anthony Gallo Reference 3.5 Audio Cabling: Signal - Audience AU24, Kimber KCAG, Audio Note ANVs, Barry Hunt Cables Speaker - XLO Type 6. Mains Cabling: Audience AU24, TCI. Mains Distribution: Mark Grant and Russ Andrews Equipment Tables: Clear Light Audio Aspekt Tacks Isolation/Platform: SSC, Bright Star Audio Isonodes, Naim Frame Record Cleaner: Hanns Audio


    System 3 (Bed Room) - CD Player Marantz CD7, Headphone Amplifier: Audio Valve RKV2 OTL Valve Headphones: Grado GS 1000, Sennheiser 560 Ovation2, Sennheiser 410SL

  5. #85
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 25,407
    I'm Martin.

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    Gradiente Brazil.

    I know Loricraft have the right to use the name, and if you are refurbing existing decks like Audio Grail that is not an issue either. The patent on the design must have expired. So as long as you don't use the Garrard name I'd guess you can market whatever you like, exact copies even. Badge them as 'Gerrard'.
    Martin



    Current Lash Up:

    Technics SLP1200 CD Player * Nelson Pass DCB1 Pre amp / Krell KSA50S Power amp * JM Lab Electra 926 loudspeakers *


    'You fool! To think that your ape-brain could contain the full knowledge of the Krell!'

  6. #86
    Join Date: Nov 2008

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    I'm Neil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Gradiente Brazil.

    I know Loricraft have the right to use the name, and if you are refurbing existing decks like Audio Grail that is not an issue either. The patent on the design must have expired. So as long as you don't use the Garrard name I'd guess you can market whatever you like, exact copies even. Badge them as 'Gerrard'.
    I cant comment, time will tell if there is an issue.

    Yes, that the name. I thought it was Brazil.
    Regards Neil

    System 1 (Living Room) : Vinyl: AMG Giro Turntable, AMG Giro Reference PSU, AMG 9W2 Tonearm, AMG Reference Armcable, Air Tight PC3 MC Cartridge PhonoStage: Passlabs Xono Digital: Esoteric P5 SACD Transport and Esoteric P 5 DAC, Sony HAP Z1es Digital File Player + Audioquest Jitter Bug, Computer Audio: Veracity Audio Mystra DAC + HP laptop + iFi Audio i Power, Wireworld Starlight USB + Audioquest Jitter Bug Tuner:Kenwood KT 7020 Cassette Tape: Nakamichi CR5e Amplification: Pre-Amplifier Meridian G02 Power-Amplifier Meridian G56 Speakers: Anthony Gallo Reference 3.1 Audio Cabling: Signal - Atlas Mavros, Audience AU24 Speaker - Atlas Mavros. Mains Cabling: Audience AU24, Analysis Plus, TCI. Mains Distribution: Mark Grant Distribution Blocks, Mark Grant DC Blocker Equipment Tables: Target Audio B series + Track Audio Isolation Spikes Isolation/ Platforms: Bright Star Audio Isonodes, BASE 01, SSC Platforms.

    System 2 (Music Room) : Vinyl: Turntable 1 Loricraft Garrard 401 Turntable + SME 5 Tonearm, Graham IC70 Tonearm Cable + VDH MC10 cartridge Turntable 2 Modified Technics 1200 turntable + Triplannar 7 Tonearm + VDH Frog Gold Cartridge + Paul Hynes SR7 PSU Turntable 3 SME Model 20 Turntable + Graham Phantom Tonearm + Graham IC70 Tonearm Cable, Ortofon MC5200 Cartridge PhonoStage: Balanced Audio Technology VK10se Digital: Moon Andromeda CD Player, Toshiba 9500 DVD Audio Player Computer Audio: AMR DP777 DAC + Dell Laptop + iFi Audio i Power + JKenny JKSPIDIF + Wireworld Starlight USB Tuners: Kenwood 8300 Tuner, Revox B760 Tuner, Leak Troughline Tuner + EAR Stereo Decoder, Magnum Dynalab Signal Sleuth FM Amplifier ReelToReel Tape: Revox B77 mk 2, Revox A77 mk3, Sony TC-377 Cassette Tape: Nakamichi DR10 Pre-Amplifier: Balanced Audio Technology VK52se Power-Amplifier: Music Reference RM200 mk1 Speakers: Anthony Gallo Reference 3.5 Audio Cabling: Signal - Audience AU24, Kimber KCAG, Audio Note ANVs, Barry Hunt Cables Speaker - XLO Type 6. Mains Cabling: Audience AU24, TCI. Mains Distribution: Mark Grant and Russ Andrews Equipment Tables: Clear Light Audio Aspekt Tacks Isolation/Platform: SSC, Bright Star Audio Isonodes, Naim Frame Record Cleaner: Hanns Audio


    System 3 (Bed Room) - CD Player Marantz CD7, Headphone Amplifier: Audio Valve RKV2 OTL Valve Headphones: Grado GS 1000, Sennheiser 560 Ovation2, Sennheiser 410SL

  7. #87
    Join Date: Feb 2010

    Location: Berkshire, UK

    Posts: 3,796
    I'm Tom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Well beauty is in the eye of the beholder - I love the looks of the TD124/II and have three of them. The only 301 I like the look of is the original grey hammertone finish version.

    Is the Thorens shown in the picture the new direct drive offering? TD124/III ? And is the arm a revamped BD-12S or a revamped EMT 929? Both are, IMO, somewhat 'agricultural' in their construction and performance, and I would hope and expect the new arm to be much improved.

    The arm appears to be some kind of recreation of a BD12S. I agree it looked a bit basic but I guess Thorens themselves have no arm that would really work, their more modern arms would be 'wrong'. Personally I didn't like it much, the case appears to be thick plastic rather than metal, it only does 33 and 45, and the DD gubbins looked a bit meh (I did see under the platter but wasn't quick enough to take a pic). Frankly it looks like a toy.

    At least SME did the retro thing properly and 12k (sorry I must have misheard the 17k) is possibly unsurprising given this won't be a volume seller and the market positioning of the SME brand's TTs. Be interesting how it performs, given how knowledge has been built over the intervening 60 years about how to make a high-performing, whisper-quiet idler, that wasn't the case in the 50s heyday of the original 301. Personally I'm not a fan of the SME belt drive TTs they sound like CD players to my ears though I know they have their fans.
    Main: Speakers 'RFC' Tannoy Canterburys / custom crossovers with Tannoy ST50 supertweeters; Amp - Silvercore 833C monoblocks; Pre EAR 912; Vinyl: Thorens TD124 MkII + Ikeda IT345-CR1 9 inch and Ikeda IT-407 12 inch tonearms; Cartridges Stereo - Miyajima Madake, Miyajima Takumi, Ikeda 9TT, vintage Ortofon SPU GE; Mono - Miyajimas - Zero 0.7, Premium 1.0, Miyajima/Edison '78' 4.0 conical, and Shure M44 strapped for mono with several Expert Stylus conicals for different eras of 78s; Phono stage and SUT from EAR 912 + Miyajima ETR-Mono SUT; Esoteric Sound Re-Equalizer for equalisation of early mono and 78, switchable in from tape loop; Digital: Audio Note CDT2/II transport, heavily modded AN Kit DAC + Mutec MC3+USB.

    Study: Speakers - Tannoy DC6; Amp: Sony TA-F3000ES; Digital: CDP Sony CDP-X3000ES & Arcam rBlink; Vinyl: Technics SL10 with Pickering TL-3.

  8. #88
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Birmingham

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    I'm James.

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    I suspect the bearing and idler mechanism will be upgraded significantly from the ropey 301 I used to own.
    VPI Scout 1.1 - Ortofon 2M Black FGS - Croft 25R+ - Croft Series 7 - Spendor SP2

  9. #89
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

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    I'm openingabottleofwine.

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    AFAIK, patents (in the UK) are granted for an initial period of seven years and can be renewed, if applied for twice. So a maximum of 21 years.

    It was the expiry of Ortofon's patent on the stereo moving coil cartridge in the late '80s, that saw the explosion of Japanese made MC designs.

    I don't believe there is a lifetime for registered trademarks, so if Loricraft own rights to the the name, then SME would have to buy it of them. But there would no problem in copying (and presumably improving) a '301'. The model designation '401' and '501' have already be assigned, and I believe there was a '601' in development. So the new deck will either be a '601' or a '701'. If SME want to do the job properly, they will buy the trademark and call the new deck the 'SME "Garrard"'.
    Barry

  10. #90
    Join Date: Nov 2008

    Location: North Down /Northern Ireland/ UK

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    I'm Neil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    AFAIK, patents (in the UK) are granted for an initial period of seven years and can be renewed, if applied for twice. So a maximum of 21 years.

    It was the expiry of Ortofon's patent on the stereo moving coil cartridge in the late '80s, that saw the explosion of Japanese made MC designs.

    I don't believe there is a lifetime for registered trademarks, so if Loricraft own rights to the the name, then SME would have to buy it of them. But there would no problem in copying (and presumably improving) a '301'. The model designation '401' and '501' have already be assigned, and I believe there was a '601' in development. So the new deck will either be a '601' or a '701'. If SME want to do the job properly, they will buy the trademark and call the new deck the 'SME "Garrard"'.
    SME own Loricraft, who own Garrard trade name etc, so SME already can do what they like I guess.
    Regards Neil

    System 1 (Living Room) : Vinyl: AMG Giro Turntable, AMG Giro Reference PSU, AMG 9W2 Tonearm, AMG Reference Armcable, Air Tight PC3 MC Cartridge PhonoStage: Passlabs Xono Digital: Esoteric P5 SACD Transport and Esoteric P 5 DAC, Sony HAP Z1es Digital File Player + Audioquest Jitter Bug, Computer Audio: Veracity Audio Mystra DAC + HP laptop + iFi Audio i Power, Wireworld Starlight USB + Audioquest Jitter Bug Tuner:Kenwood KT 7020 Cassette Tape: Nakamichi CR5e Amplification: Pre-Amplifier Meridian G02 Power-Amplifier Meridian G56 Speakers: Anthony Gallo Reference 3.1 Audio Cabling: Signal - Atlas Mavros, Audience AU24 Speaker - Atlas Mavros. Mains Cabling: Audience AU24, Analysis Plus, TCI. Mains Distribution: Mark Grant Distribution Blocks, Mark Grant DC Blocker Equipment Tables: Target Audio B series + Track Audio Isolation Spikes Isolation/ Platforms: Bright Star Audio Isonodes, BASE 01, SSC Platforms.

    System 2 (Music Room) : Vinyl: Turntable 1 Loricraft Garrard 401 Turntable + SME 5 Tonearm, Graham IC70 Tonearm Cable + VDH MC10 cartridge Turntable 2 Modified Technics 1200 turntable + Triplannar 7 Tonearm + VDH Frog Gold Cartridge + Paul Hynes SR7 PSU Turntable 3 SME Model 20 Turntable + Graham Phantom Tonearm + Graham IC70 Tonearm Cable, Ortofon MC5200 Cartridge PhonoStage: Balanced Audio Technology VK10se Digital: Moon Andromeda CD Player, Toshiba 9500 DVD Audio Player Computer Audio: AMR DP777 DAC + Dell Laptop + iFi Audio i Power + JKenny JKSPIDIF + Wireworld Starlight USB Tuners: Kenwood 8300 Tuner, Revox B760 Tuner, Leak Troughline Tuner + EAR Stereo Decoder, Magnum Dynalab Signal Sleuth FM Amplifier ReelToReel Tape: Revox B77 mk 2, Revox A77 mk3, Sony TC-377 Cassette Tape: Nakamichi DR10 Pre-Amplifier: Balanced Audio Technology VK52se Power-Amplifier: Music Reference RM200 mk1 Speakers: Anthony Gallo Reference 3.5 Audio Cabling: Signal - Audience AU24, Kimber KCAG, Audio Note ANVs, Barry Hunt Cables Speaker - XLO Type 6. Mains Cabling: Audience AU24, TCI. Mains Distribution: Mark Grant and Russ Andrews Equipment Tables: Clear Light Audio Aspekt Tacks Isolation/Platform: SSC, Bright Star Audio Isonodes, Naim Frame Record Cleaner: Hanns Audio


    System 3 (Bed Room) - CD Player Marantz CD7, Headphone Amplifier: Audio Valve RKV2 OTL Valve Headphones: Grado GS 1000, Sennheiser 560 Ovation2, Sennheiser 410SL

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