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Thread: 2 x DL-103's - why do they sound so different?

  1. #11
    Join Date: Sep 2014

    Location: brighton uk.

    Posts: 4,737
    I'm jamie.

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    I agree, a mint protractor is very good, I’m just about to buy another one for my arm.
    My System
    John Wood KT88 Amp.
    Paradise Phono Stage
    Sony TTS-8000 Turntable.
    PMAT-1010 MK6 Tonearm.
    Ortofon Cadenza Bronze
    Sony X555ES Cd Player
    Yamaha NS1000m Speakers

  2. #12
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 31,848
    I'm openingabottleofwine.

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    In the absence of a manufacturer's alignment protractor, do what I do: look up the two null-radii for the arm in question on vinylengine.com and mark these on an aftermarket protractor. If the two null-radii markings are correct to within 0.25mm, the overhang will be correct to within 0.1mm and the angular offset correct to within 0.1 degree.
    Barry

  3. #13
    Join Date: Apr 2019

    Location: London, UK

    Posts: 34
    I'm David.

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    The Technics overhang gauge appears accurately made and I found that using it carefully produces a very near spot on Stevenson alignment, as verified by a protractor I downloaded from Vinyl Engine. I can't see more tweaking with different alignments reaping any real sonic dividends. After all...and as far as I understand it.....these different alignments are basically just different compromises (albeit good ones), as there is no single alignment that is optimal across the full toneram arc.

    Moving slightly off-topic, it's been interesting to compare the DL103's on my SL1200 to the Nagaoka MP110 on my Rega Planar 3. They both sound good, but distinctly different too, with the DL103 seeming to separate the different instruments more and providing a more realistic top end, where cymbals have a crisp metallic edge to them, which I must assume is more accurate. The Nagaoka produces what I initially thought was a weightier sound with a more bass thump and a smoother (more rolled off?) treble, but I do wonder whether this is really just a more compressed sound. After further listening I noted that the DL103 is producing just as much bass weight, but the instruments producing that bass seem to have more of their own space, whereas with the Nagaoka the different sounds/instruments are somewhat less separated. I would assume the DL103 is presenting the music more accurately here...though the MP110 does sound 'nice' though.

  4. #14
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 31,848
    I'm openingabottleofwine.

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    Re. 'tweaking' the alignment, as I said all arms are designed to conform to a particular tracking error minimisation prescription. There are three commonly recognised minimisation schemes: Baerwald (also known as Loefgen A); Loefgren (also known as Loefgren B) and Stevenson.

    The manufacturer of your arm has chosen a Stevenson-like scheme and designed the arm to have a particular overhang and offset angle to achieve this. As a result the two null-radii, at which the tangential tracking error is zero, are at 58.8mm and 113.5mm. An arm designed to follow the Stevenson scheme would have the two null-radii at 60.3mm and 117.0mm. As can be seen the two sets of figures are close, but not identical. This is why in setting up the arm and cartridge using the Technics gauge, you find it conforms closely to the Stevenson alignment.

    There maybe two reasons for this: either Technics miscalculated the geometry, or for reasons best known to them they decided to move the null points. But whatever the reason, it is best that you use the Technics gauge.
    Barry

  5. #15
    Join Date: Mar 2013

    Location: West Sussex

    Posts: 195
    I'm Chris.

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    Hi chaps,

    I had a similar experience when I replaced an Elys 2 on my Rega P3 2000 with another new Elys 2. So the same deck and arm and same set up but the sound was chalk and cheese. The 1st Elys 2 sounded big bold and dynamic and the replacement dull and flat. I put it down to sample variation.

    Good luck sorting out your DL103!

    Chris

  6. #16
    Join Date: Sep 2016

    Location: Brussels, Belgium

    Posts: 132
    I'm Tim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yabadaba View Post
    So, I recently got myself a Technics SL1200 MK5 and decided to fit one of my DL-103 carts. I set it up as follows:

    Jelco HS25 headshell
    3.5mm wooden shim
    Technics Baerwald alignment (using Vinyl Engine arc protractor)
    Auxiliary counterweight
    Herbie's 4mm mat

    Sounds pretty good, but not as full-bodied and warm as I remembered and also brighter, too. As I happen to have 2 x DL-103's (one serial number apart) I thought I'd try the other one and set this up as follows (both with VTF at 2.5g and arm level)

    Technics stock headshell
    6mm rubber shim (made from a new exhaust strap - quite hard rubber)
    Technics overhang gauge alignment
    Auxiliary counterweight
    Herbie's 4mm mat

    Really surprised, as sounds much nicer....well to my preference anyway. A richer, more full-bodied sound with weightier bass and the high end a little smoother, though nicely detailed at the same time.

    I'm really not sure why the distinct difference in sound here and, if anything, I would have expected the results to be the reverse of what they are. I did try and calculate what 'effective' tonearm mass I ended up with but can't recall the figures I came too, though I know the Jelco setup was only about 1g heavier. I chose to leave the additional 4g headshell weight off the Technics headshell, as that would have left it exceeding the Jelco setup weight by 2 to 3g's.

    So, I'm wondering why I'm getting these results...any thoughts? Thanks, David.
    Wood shim have to be of the dense kind. Add mas to the headshell with metal weight shims if you have any. The DL-103 is low compliant and enjoys higher tonearm bearing inertia. The "rubber" shim is nothing I would go for. Those DL-103 are large conical nude stylus and so overhang is not that critical. If they had some mileage on them, they should indeed benefit from the same respective overhang as previously. And is the VTA readjusted as well ?
    - Cart Denon DL-102 in bakelite Ortofon SPU 'G' type headshell
    - TA SME 3009 'Improved' converted in heavy mass with detachable headshell
    - TT Thorens TD160 'E' totally tweaked driven by an 'Eagle & RoadRunner' PSU & tachometer combo
    - Matts top to bottom: leather, cork, felt & 12" vinyl
    - Pre-amp 'Modulis' Isem
    - Amp 'Exampli' Etalon 2x40W
    - Speakers 12" Leak 'Sandwich' first generation creatively recapped

  7. #17
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 31,848
    I'm openingabottleofwine.

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    Since the Denon 103 uses a spherical tipped stylus, the VTA is not critical.

    Whereas achieving the correct overhang is important regardless of the cartridge being monophonic or not. The theory of cartridge/arm geometry to minimise tracking distortion was developed in the '30s, long before the advent of stereo.
    Last edited by Barry; 18-04-2019 at 17:50. Reason: Addition
    Barry

  8. #18
    Join Date: Sep 2016

    Location: Brussels, Belgium

    Posts: 132
    I'm Tim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Since the Denon 13 uses a spherical tipped stylus, the VTA is not critical.
    With my DL-102, another beast of it's own but with the same cantilever and stylus, and my unforgiving loud, clear, deep and neutral amplification, I can tell you that I have find the VTA adjustment to be crucial as is the VTF. Just my experience of it.
    - Cart Denon DL-102 in bakelite Ortofon SPU 'G' type headshell
    - TA SME 3009 'Improved' converted in heavy mass with detachable headshell
    - TT Thorens TD160 'E' totally tweaked driven by an 'Eagle & RoadRunner' PSU & tachometer combo
    - Matts top to bottom: leather, cork, felt & 12" vinyl
    - Pre-amp 'Modulis' Isem
    - Amp 'Exampli' Etalon 2x40W
    - Speakers 12" Leak 'Sandwich' first generation creatively recapped

  9. #19
    Join Date: Sep 2014

    Location: brighton uk.

    Posts: 4,737
    I'm jamie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Since the Denon 13 uses a spherical tipped stylus, the VTA is not critical.
    +1,
    My System
    John Wood KT88 Amp.
    Paradise Phono Stage
    Sony TTS-8000 Turntable.
    PMAT-1010 MK6 Tonearm.
    Ortofon Cadenza Bronze
    Sony X555ES Cd Player
    Yamaha NS1000m Speakers

  10. #20
    Join Date: Apr 2019

    Location: London, UK

    Posts: 34
    I'm David.

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    I’m always careful with VTA, or indeed SRA. Currently the DL103’s are setup with headshell / top of cartridge level when on record surface, at first by eye and then confirmed with a small spirit level. With my Nagaoka in the Rega, I have used a digital microscope and measured SRA and have it very close to 92 degrees with one 2mm shim under the tonearm.

    I find the Nagaoka particularly sensitive to VTA, with a clearly discernible change in frequency response as it is adjusted. The effect appears much less with the Denon’s, hence why I satisfied myself with only confirming cartridge body is parallel. One of the reasons I’m using headshell shims with the Denon’s is because without them the tonearm appears slightly tail down even when adjusted to its lowest setting.

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