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Thread: Digital replay. Have I experienced an epiphany, or just a healthy dose of reality?

  1. #1
    Join Date: May 2008

    Location: Southern England

    Posts: 2,990
    I'm Howard.

    Default Digital replay. Have I experienced an epiphany, or just a healthy dose of reality?

    Hello again.

    Is it daft to spend over £4k on a digital replay device?


    I'm asking, because of two very recent experiences which have caused me to reflect on the reality of ‘value’ in a market sector which is rapidly evolving – by which I mean that quality is increasing while retail prices are declining.

    From my perspective, this is unique in its acceleration in the audiophile arena. Only digital replay has experienced this quality : price ratio change so rapidly. You won’t find it with speakers of amps to the same degree. Anyway …

    Experience #1

    I plugged in some of my old and cheap spare CD players into one of my state-of-the-art systems. Frankly, given the vintage and the pitiful prices for these discontinued units on e-bay (various Denon, Yamaha and Meridian and so on), the sheer value was extraordinary. My top of the line CD replay was (and I guess that because of my job I know precisely what to listen for) superior – but not dramatically so – in this context.

    Admittedly comparing new to used skews the perception somewhat, to say nothing of the outdated thinking that the source is always ALWAYS (sometimes shrieked in a Glaswegian accent) the primary consideration. But, the surprise is what it is.

    Experience #2


    My CDs, recorded onto my Apple Mac using a very inexpensive on-board (recent replacement) CD/DVD reader/writer is very good indeed. To anyone other than the seasoned and dedicated listener, I now doubt if the differences between the Mac and the CD played through an expensive new CD player would be noticeable nor significant.

    My conclusions – so far ….


    Is that Stereonow Ltd might soon evolve into being a specialist in speakers (Harbeth only) and amplification (LFD only) and might give up selling any digital replay items. Obviously I’ll keep my state-of-the-art CD machine for replay purposes during demos.

    In a nutshell then …


    I think the writing is on the wall for the retail of expensive CD machines. But I might be wrong. It happens.

    Any thoughts would be appreciated.

    Thank you

    HP
    enquiries@Stereonow.co.uk
    Last edited by Neil McCauley; 29-05-2008 at 17:28.
    Well, hello.

  2. #2
    Join Date: Feb 2008

    Location: North East UK

    Posts: 6,358
    I'm InSpace.

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    Brilliant post Howard!!!



    I'm just going to sit back and watch this one! I wouldn't be supprised if the fur starts flying sometime quite soon.

    Shian7
    --------------------------------------------------------

    Kudakutemo
    kudakutemo

    ari mizu-no tsuki

    Though it be be broken -
    broken again - still it's there:
    the moon on the water.

    - Choshu.

  3. #3
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Norfolk, UK

    Posts: 6,209
    I'm BigBobJoylove.

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    Well, to put a very short post up. I did a back to back comparison, my iMac and Apogee 24/192 DAC playing imported uncompressed files (AIFF) versus a dCS Puccini (£5k). I also did a comparison against my MF A3.5 & Tri-Vista 21 DAC (£3,500) and a GamuT CD3 (£4,400).

    See my signature.

    Ben Duncan mains conditioner
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  4. #4
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Gerrards Cross

    Posts: 2,991
    I'm Tony.

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    Rob,

    Did you do the comparison in your own system or at a dealers demo room?
    Are you using the high def format downloads or just the so called high quality mp3 files at 24 bit?
    At the moment, I have yet to hear any so called cd quality down load get close to a half reasonable cd player. If it can I would look at issues in your system first!
    We have a extensive hdd collection and set up (1.5 terrabytes/dedicated PC, trick drives, raid back up etc) super clean power supplies to all the kit involved, a very special dac, and using the normal quality downloads, it can not hold a candle to X-03se
    When switching to the high res downloads, it is a very different matter LOL.
    However the true 24bit 96khz/176.4khz downloads with a quality dac, (not using usb lol) can produce eye watering results for people who covet vinyl so greatly.
    Maybe JC was on to something, he just needed some quality equipment to support his very informed if a little OTT rantings :-)
    Having a quality dac with a bandwidth (24/192khz) will give you the opportunity to explore both your red-book and download potential.
    The Best of both worlds, those with dac's not being able to accept these limits will be disadvantaged.
    So in answer to Howard's question, I do see a decline in the high end cd market, but not a disappearance, after all black pizza's are still going strong!
    Coherent Systems
    Real high end sound with musicality not hifi

  5. #5
    Join Date: May 2008

    Location: Well below the Mason-Dixon line

    Posts: 370

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    Howard, I'm assuming that when you play music from your Mac that you are running it through an outboard DAC? And given your profession and experience I would further assume that it is at least as good as Filterlab's Duet? Yes? Then that is really your source. No CD player, no matter how stable its transport, is going to be much more stable than RAM. No moving parts is pretty hard to beat for stability. So the DAC is the source. There are some mighty expensive audiophile DACs out there, and these days, to further your discussion, I'm not quite sure I get that.

    I got out of the audiophile world for about 20 years, but I never quite left pro audio. I hadn't made any music in a studio in quite awhile, though, until recently. A project I was working on needed a couple of minutes of simple acoustic guitar, and because I play one of those, it was cheaper, by far, to record something than it was to pay for needledrop. I went into a studio I know that specializes in commercial projects, but records music on the side. All digital. I recorded my little bit, then the engineer played it back to me through his big Tannoy mid-field monitors before he added any sweetening.

    It sounded like my guitar. Let me make sure you completely understand what I'm saying. It didn't sound like a guitar or even a '03 Gibson Custom Shop Original Jumbo with an Adirondack spruce top. It sounded like my guitar. I play it ever day. I know it as well as the sweet tones of my wife's voice (hi hon.). I just can't imagine a better reference than that.

    What was controlling the timing of all the digital devices and doing all the conversion in that studio? Apogee AD and DA converters operating under the orders of an Apogee Big Ben studio clock.

    Have you priced one of those? Street prices are well under $1500 USD. That's the clock that controls the studio that makes the music we listen to. If we're paying more than that for sources to play music back on, something is amiss. MHO. YMMV.

    Filterlab's Duet? $500. And Apogee is one of those companies that trickles its technology down very quickly. When the duet came out, the word in recording circles was that while it may lack features, flexibility and balanced outs, the damned thing sounded as good as Apogee's studio stuff. For $500. That's just nuts.

    Tim

  6. #6
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Gerrards Cross

    Posts: 2,991
    I'm Tony.

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    Tim,

    Did you ever compare a BB apogee to a Drawmer master clock, quiet an ear opener and some what cheaper in the UK too! (for once!)
    However I do agree 100% correct timing is very import in total digital system collation, in fact its essential imho. (even with slaved transport/dac clocks txco's/ trick pll's etc.)
    A dedicated word clock just brings it all together verbaitum.
    We use a rare earth element stable clock to sync both the CDP and the dac (which are separate in the system, the dac just for the PC audio).
    Interesting times are afoot :-)
    Coherent Systems
    Real high end sound with musicality not hifi

  7. #7
    Join Date: May 2008

    Location: Well below the Mason-Dixon line

    Posts: 370

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. C View Post
    Tim,

    Did you ever compare a BB apogee to a Drawmer master clock, quiet an ear opener and some what cheaper in the UK too! (for once!)
    However I do agree 100% correct timing is very import in total digital system collation, in fact its essential imho. (even with slaved transport/dac clocks txco's/ trick pll's etc.)
    A dedicated word clock just brings it all together verbaitum.
    We use a rare earth element stable clock to sync both the CDP and the dac (which are separate in the system, the dac just for the PC audio).
    Interesting times are afoot :-)
    I haven't heard a Drawmer, but I'm not the guy who builds or operates the studio, just one of the many who go in there and pay to use the thing. I have done a lot of commercial production -- voice overs, mixing audio tracks, that sort of thing -- in recent years, but I'm not sure I had laid down any music with my own instruments since tape (I'm very, very old). It was an eye-opener. I swear it sounded like my very instrument was coming out of the studio walls. Tubes are lovely. Warmth is wonderful. This was just stunningly real. (I want those big Tannoys in my house!)

    Of course it was a very simple task, a single acoustic guitar. A bigger challenge may have yielded very different results.

    Tim

  8. #8
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Norfolk, UK

    Posts: 6,209
    I'm BigBobJoylove.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. C View Post
    Rob,

    Did you do the comparison in your own system or at a dealers demo room?
    At home.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. C View Post
    Are you using the high def format downloads or just the so called high quality mp3 files at 24 bit?
    MP3! No way, files are AIFF (as per my explanation and signature) - completely lossless imported from a CD, no compression whatsoever. I'm very familiar with this format as it's the format I use when recording my own music. I also keep everything in this format when I master on to CD as well. I never ever download any music and I never use any lossy compression. Also I don't use USB to my DAC, I use TOSlink currently although when Apogee release the Leopard drivers I may give Firewire a whirl, but I've a sneaky suspicion that it won't be as good.

    I know it sounds absurd that a £5k player (and a £4.4k player) should not sound as good, but this is a genuine result heard in my own system at my own home. My current source destroyed my MF combo which I had for a while and loved a lot, and not 'only just' either.

    Quote Originally Posted by tfarney View Post
    Filterlab's Duet? $500.
    Mine isn't the Duet, it's the Mini-DAC. Unfortunately the exchange rates are not brilliant and the Mini-DAC retails at £1k (although I paid less for mine ), still a freakin' bargain though!

    You have definitely hit the nail on the head Tim. RAM is always more stable than anything with moving parts (ok, the HD spins, but only to block dump data) and the DAC [u]IS[/us] the source rather than the transport. This is where I feel computers have the advantage over CD players. I'm not sure the audiophile community will make the switch too hastily though, CD players are a tried and tested hi-fi source and there are some very very good CD players on the market, and not all necessarily cost £4,000 and up.

    Ben Duncan mains conditioner
    2022 MacBook Pro 14" M1 Pro 10/16/16/16
    Samsung QE75Q90T 75" QLED TV
    XMOS DSD Async USB to Coax converter
    RME Audio ADI-2 FS (AK4493) DAC
    Chord Clearway XLR interconnects
    Audioquest Crimson USB interconnect
    QED Quartz Reference optical interconnect
    Edifier S3000 Pro active speakers
    Atacama SE24 stands

  9. #9
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Norfolk, UK

    Posts: 6,209
    I'm BigBobJoylove.

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    I must add though that personally my Mac based set-up is better for me, other ears and opinions may differ, but have a listen first eh.

    Ben Duncan mains conditioner
    2022 MacBook Pro 14" M1 Pro 10/16/16/16
    Samsung QE75Q90T 75" QLED TV
    XMOS DSD Async USB to Coax converter
    RME Audio ADI-2 FS (AK4493) DAC
    Chord Clearway XLR interconnects
    Audioquest Crimson USB interconnect
    QED Quartz Reference optical interconnect
    Edifier S3000 Pro active speakers
    Atacama SE24 stands

  10. #10
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Norfolk, UK

    Posts: 6,209
    I'm BigBobJoylove.

    Default

    I'm sure it's not entirely your fault mate. The strength of the pound is the problem at the moment.

    Ben Duncan mains conditioner
    2022 MacBook Pro 14" M1 Pro 10/16/16/16
    Samsung QE75Q90T 75" QLED TV
    XMOS DSD Async USB to Coax converter
    RME Audio ADI-2 FS (AK4493) DAC
    Chord Clearway XLR interconnects
    Audioquest Crimson USB interconnect
    QED Quartz Reference optical interconnect
    Edifier S3000 Pro active speakers
    Atacama SE24 stands

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