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Thread: Digital Facts and realities?

  1. #101
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Birmingham

    Posts: 6,772
    I'm James.

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    When you move to bit perfect accurately clocked file based audio you can hear what the effect is of removing jitter. Technical journalists and articles written about the subject can tell you this but the proof is actually demonstrating it to yourself and actually hearing the results.

    You can read lots of opposed claptrap and theoretical technical arguments but it is only when you undertake actually evaluation yourself through listening does any of this make sense.

    A lot of the work in digital audio at the moment seems to be around Power supplies and for good reason. Their effect on DACs and anything in the audio chain is audible.

    Suggesting jitter had been solved is a nonsense because even with the very best equipment and accurate clocking their are variables in quality of parts used.

    Timing is everything and the reconstruction of the original digital recording can so easily be compromised, especially by CD players unless huge effort and expense has been taken to resolve the issues. A spinning disc read by a laser at 500 mph with small scratches and imperfections is not best way to extract digital audio!
    Main system : VPI Scout 1.1 / JMW 9T / 2M Black / Croft 25R+ / Croft 7 / Heco Celan GT 702

    Second System : Goldring Lenco GL75 / AT95EX / Pioneer SX590 / Spendor SP2

  2. #102
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Hi Jason,

    Quote Originally Posted by blackmetalboon View Post
    I know I may be unpopular for this view, but how many people who have this problems with the digital reproduction of music come from the analogue generation? When people have commented on my (digital) system as being very analogue sounding, I’ve not seen it as a compliment.
    Well, in terms of your first point, I'm from what you call the "analogue generation" (so is Martin), but also fully embrace, and indeed enjoy, digital audio equipment and digitally reproduced music, having both a superb Sony CDP/DAC, from the era Martin mentions, where the players and DACs he claims had already "solved the jitter issue", yet in my case benefitted significantly from having clock upgrades carried out, plus a modern streaming system, with access to over 6TB of music files - both of which I listen to regularly and enjoy immensely.

    The sound either produces isn't 'perfect', but then nothing is, but I don't sit there worrying about the effects of jitter, produced by my digital equipment, simply because it sounds great, regardless of whatever small amounts of jitter are present - and present I believe they are, to varying degrees, not just in my gear, but ALL digital equipment, vintage and modern. In effect though, it doesn't spoil my enjoyment of the music it makes.

    However, if someone were to build a box that successfully removed all jitter from my digital equipment, I'd be very confident of hearing the difference, just as I did when clock upgrades were applied to my 1987 Sony DAS-R1 DAC. Therefore, it's not a case of a non-problem looking for a solution, but rather an existing problem (jitter) only becoming an issue if you're aware of it and can hear it, and so only at that point does it need a solution!

    In terms of people saying that your digital system sounds "very analogue", well, that's simply a subjective observation that you can take how you like. It could be seen as a compliment though, if your digital system displays little of the traits (a hard, bright sound), which often afflicts digital equipment and causes listener fatigue, which as long as it doesn't make your system sound dull and boring (which I'm sure it doesn't), I'd take as a compliment

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  3. #103
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    You can read lots of opposed claptrap and theoretical technical arguments but it is only when you undertake actually evaluation yourself through listening does any of this make sense.
    I fully agree. It's also what Martin needs to do before I can take his views on the matter more seriously, as quoting the contents of technical studies, to supposedly prove a point, conducted by goodness knows who [in terms of the 'guinea pigs' employed to produce the crucial test information], IMO, doesn't add any real value to the discussion.

    If he came back and said that he's had the clock upgraded in his DAC, and couldn't hear any difference, or the opposite, then it'd sit up and take notice, as I trust his ears. The fact is, we can all search the Internet and find any number of 'technical studies', which on the surface appear to confirm our views on audio, but that doesn't necessarily mean that our efforts have been successful.

    Timing is everything and the reconstruction of the original digital recording can so easily be compromised, especially by CD players unless huge effort and expense has been taken to resolve the issues. A spinning disc read by a laser at 500 mph with small scratches and imperfections is not best way to extract digital audio!
    Nope, which is why all else being equal, especially in terms of the partnering DAC, streaming music files digitally, minus the use of discs and the physical interface of a CDP, can pay dividends.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  4. #104
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Birmingham

    Posts: 6,772
    I'm James.

    Default

    As you may have gathered Marco I am not a digital guy but I can appreciate what I hear whether its analogue or digital and some of the digital audio I have heard recently has been mighty impressive. I have then asked the reasons why and tried to understand technically what affects digital audio but it is sometimes difficult getting a clear straight answer. And with digital audio there are many ways to cut the cake!

    Sorting Fact and Realities from the mumbo jumbo is difficult so I have simply followed trust worthy advice and experimented myself. I am not a flat earther and always open to suggestions in audio and if it sounds good then it is something I want to investigate. It may not always work out in your own system but unless you try I don't think you can argue whether its good or bad?

    Like you have always advocated your own ears tell you everything. Technical information only gives you part of the story.
    Main system : VPI Scout 1.1 / JMW 9T / 2M Black / Croft 25R+ / Croft 7 / Heco Celan GT 702

    Second System : Goldring Lenco GL75 / AT95EX / Pioneer SX590 / Spendor SP2

  5. #105
    Join Date: Nov 2011

    Location: Seaton, Devon, UK

    Posts: 13,239
    I'm Adrian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Hi Jason,

    The sound either produces isn't 'perfect', but then nothing is, but I don't sit there worrying about the effects of jitter, produced by my digital equipment, simply because it sounds great, regardless of whatever small amounts of jitter are present - and present I believe they are, to varying degrees, not just in my gear, but ALL digital equipment, vintage and modern. In effect though, it doesn't spoil my enjoyment of the music it makes.

    Marco.
    Marco,

    How do you know it isn't 'perfect', what are your terms of reference, your system may in fact be nearing audio perfection but we and you may not know it. As you say it sounds great, so isn't that 'perfect' enough?

    Cheers

    Adrian
    Listening is the act of aural discrimination and dissemination of sound, and accepting you get it wrong sometimes.

    Analog Inputs: Pro-Ject Signature 10 TT & arm, Benz Micro LP-S, Michel Cusis MC, Goldring 2500 and Ortofon Rondo Blue cartridges, Hitachi FT5500 mk2 Tuner

    Digital:- Marantz SA-KI Pearl CD player, RaspberryPi/HifiBerry Digi+ Pro, Buffalo NAS Drive

    Amplification:- AudioValve Sunilda phono stage, Krell KSP-7B pre-amp, Krell KSA-80 power amp

    Output: Wilson Benesch Vector speakers, KLH Ultimate One Headphones

    Cables: Tellurium Q Ultra Black II RCA & Chord Epic 2 RCA, various speaker leads, & links


    I think I am nearing audio nirvana, but don’t tell anyone.

  6. #106
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    As you may have gathered Marco I am not a digital guy but I can appreciate what I hear whether its analogue or digital and some of the digital audio I have heard recently has been mighty impressive. I have then asked the reasons why and tried to understand technically what affects digital audio but it is sometimes difficult getting a clear straight answer. And with digital audio there are many ways to cut the cake!

    Sorting Fact and Realities from the mumbo jumbo is difficult so I have simply followed trust worthy advice and experimented myself. I am not a flat earther and always open to suggestions in audio and if it sounds good then it is something I want to investigate. It may not always work out in your own system but unless you try I don't think you can argue whether its good or bad?

    Like you have always advocated your own ears tell you everything. Technical information only gives you part of the story.
    We're on the same page, dude

    Basically, I'll ultimately trust my own ears and those of others that from experience I consider as good, such as yours or Martin's - not those of a complete stranger, whose hearing acuity/mental capacity ultimately forms the basis of the conclusions reached in some technical study, and who may be deaf to real things I can hear and consider as important.

    That's why I'd never use such material as supporting evidence to form or back up any of my views on audio.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  7. #107
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AJSki2fly View Post
    Marco,

    How do you know it isn't 'perfect', what are your terms of reference, your system may in fact be nearing audio perfection but we and you may not know it. As you say it sounds great, so isn't that 'perfect' enough?
    Ha... Adrian, I work from the assumption that *nothing* in life is perfect, otherwise we'd never have anything better to look forward to!

    More seriously though, I know that I could improve my system (in certain areas), and afterwards almost certainly achieve a real improvement, so using that logic, it can't be perfect. Besides, this hobby of ours, by its very nature, is imperfect in many ways, so to kid oneself on otherwise would be rather foolish.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  8. #108
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Birmingham

    Posts: 6,772
    I'm James.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    We're on the same page here, dude

    Marco.
    Main system : VPI Scout 1.1 / JMW 9T / 2M Black / Croft 25R+ / Croft 7 / Heco Celan GT 702

    Second System : Goldring Lenco GL75 / AT95EX / Pioneer SX590 / Spendor SP2

  9. #109
    Join Date: Nov 2011

    Location: Seaton, Devon, UK

    Posts: 13,239
    I'm Adrian.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Ha... Adrian, I work from the assumption that *nothing* in life is perfect, otherwise we'd never have anything better to look forward to!

    More seriously though, I know that I could improve my system (in certain areas), and afterwards almost certainly achieve a real improvement, so using that logic, it can't be perfect. Besides, this hobby of ours, by its very nature, is imperfect in many ways, so to kid oneself on otherwise would be rather foolish.

    Marco.
    So what you are telling me is my system is imperfect in essence, without having heard it
    Listening is the act of aural discrimination and dissemination of sound, and accepting you get it wrong sometimes.

    Analog Inputs: Pro-Ject Signature 10 TT & arm, Benz Micro LP-S, Michel Cusis MC, Goldring 2500 and Ortofon Rondo Blue cartridges, Hitachi FT5500 mk2 Tuner

    Digital:- Marantz SA-KI Pearl CD player, RaspberryPi/HifiBerry Digi+ Pro, Buffalo NAS Drive

    Amplification:- AudioValve Sunilda phono stage, Krell KSP-7B pre-amp, Krell KSA-80 power amp

    Output: Wilson Benesch Vector speakers, KLH Ultimate One Headphones

    Cables: Tellurium Q Ultra Black II RCA & Chord Epic 2 RCA, various speaker leads, & links


    I think I am nearing audio nirvana, but don’t tell anyone.

  10. #110
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Default

    Yesh, shweety, the same as I can state with relative certainty that your cock isn't 12" long, despite not having seen it!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


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