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Thread: Digital Facts and realities?

  1. #91
    Join Date: Aug 2009

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    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Light Dependant Resistor View Post
    What you are missing is that audio in the spectrum we hear is changed detrimentally, where frequency response is filtered. https://earthworksaudio.com/wp-conte...yond-20kHz.pdf
    There's nothing in that article offering anything other than speculation to back that claim up. And the bloke does have a business selling extended bandwidth mics to the recording industry. of course recording at high sampling and bit rates makes perfect sense, it just makes no sense for playback.

    If we are going to say that we need frequencies above 22Khz to be able to hear music properly, what about all the recordings, pop, rock, jazz, classical made with equipment that did not have that bandwith - i.e all the great recordings of history? is 'Kind Of Blue' now not worth listening too because the SQ is awful? Deep Purple 'In Rock'? - now worthless, sounds rubbish.

    Sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense, either theoretically or practically. Even if we make a leap of faith and believe there would be a difference had these recordings been made with a bandwidth of 40Khz the difference, at best, would be infinitesimal as far as our perception is concerned.
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  2. #92
    Join Date: Sep 2013

    Location: North Island New Zealand

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    I'm Chris.

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    [QUOTE=Macca;1070599]
    Quote Originally Posted by Light Dependant Resistor View Post
    What you are missing is that audio in the spectrum we hear is changed detrimentally, where frequency response is filtered. https://earthworksaudio.com/wp-conte...yond-20kHz.pdf
    QUOTE]

    There's nothing in that article offering anything other than speculation to back that claim up. And the bloke does have a business selling extended bandwidth mics to the recording industry. of course recording at high sampling and bit rates makes perfect sense, it just makes no sense for playback.

    If we are going to say that we need frequencies above 22Khz to be able to hear music properly, what about all the recordings, pop, rock, jazz, classical made with equipment that did not have that bandwith - i.e all the great recordings of history? is 'Kind Of Blue' now not worth listening too because the SQ is awful? Deep Purple 'In Rock'? - now worthless, sounds rubbish.

    Sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense, either theoretically or practically. Even if we make a leap of faith and believe there would be a difference had these recordings been made with a bandwidth of 40Khz the difference, at best, would be infinitesimal as far as our perception is concerned.
    David Blackmers findings are backed by Malcolm Hawksford 6 mins into the video, namely calling for 96Khz sampling and as a result 45khz frequency response.
    Likewise this paper identifies muted trumpet harmonics extending well beyond 20Khz http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm
    and shown in this graph fig1a.jpg

    Thankfully recording engineers usually preserves frequencies above 20khz, it is just sad our replay equipment does not presently properly reproduce what was recorded.

  3. #93
    Join Date: Feb 2008

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    I'm Neal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    http://thehbproject.com/en

    Respectfully disagree, I would not recommend that site on the whole. Some of what he says is correct but even a broken clock is right twice a day. Most of the issues he talks about as being a big deal make no difference to what we can hear.


    As usual with audio mistakenly linking a cause to an effect can lead to some wrong (and possibly expensive) conclusions.
    I like to see / read practical evidence supporting or disproving these issues and I agree with Martin on this one. The HB project guy needs to re-evaluate the way digital filters work, yes he makes some good points but the practical evidence shown here: http://archimago.blogspot.com/2018/0...ital.html#more shows that digital filters work perfectly well in a correctly bandwidth limited signal. An impulse test to prove they don’t is not valid, all that does is to test the response of the filter not how it will actually sound with normal program material because the impulse itself is not bandwidth limited.
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  4. #94
    Join Date: Feb 2008

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    I'm Neal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    It matters if there is enough of it to be audible I agree. The question should be does any DAC or CD player have enough of it to be audible? If you look on ASR site they have tested about 60 DACs and even the worst performing ones do not have jitter any where near audible levels.


    Take a look at the research I linked to earlier where they tested the audibility of jitter. It's funny that even though I link to this stuff people think I am making it up myself. There's a whole world of research on this stuff out there, it's not some big mystery. These questions were asked and properly answered some time ago. Oh well.
    Worked my way through the AES paper, the conclusion I took away was yes jitter can be heard but the author was surprised at the levels required, however, he also noted that it was material dependant and that with training the test participants improved their ability to identify jitter. If the listening participants where non-audio types then this maybe skewed the results, I’m totally guessing that if more keen audio participants where used the results may have been different. What I didn’t take from the paper was that CD players from decades ago had ‘solved the jitter issue’.
    Listening in a Foo free Zone...

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  5. #95
    Join Date: Jan 2013

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    I'm James.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NRG View Post
    I like to see / read practical evidence supporting or disproving these issues and I agree with Martin on this one. The HB project guy needs to re-evaluate the way digital filters work, yes he makes some good points but the practical evidence shown here: http://archimago.blogspot.com/2018/0...ital.html#more shows that digital filters work perfectly well in a correctly bandwidth limited signal. An impulse test to prove they don’t is not valid, all that does is to test the response of the filter not how it will actually sound with normal program material because the impulse itself is not bandwidth limited.
    Which bit do you agree with Martin on?
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  6. #96
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

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    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NRG View Post
    Worked my way through the AES paper, the conclusion I took away was yes jitter can be heard but the author was surprised at the levels required, however, he also noted that it was material dependant and that with training the test participants improved their ability to identify jitter. If the listening participants where non-audio types then this maybe skewed the results, I’m totally guessing that if more keen audio participants where used the results may have been different. What I didn’t take from the paper was that CD players from decades ago had ‘solved the jitter issue’.
    No doubt, and that's precisely why, unlike Martin, I never take the conclusions of these technical studies/papers as Gospel, or at least allow them to influence my opinions to the extent that I use them to confirm my arguments in debates such as this.

    What matters ultimately, is the conclusions YOU have reached, based on YOUR own research and experience, in reference to a specific subject, not what some technical paper says, which although interesting and perhaps in some ways relevant, does not automatically prove anything, especially, as you say, when it's likely the conclusions reached are based upon information gathered from participants not ideally qualified to perform their intended roles.

    And in my experience, as you say, CD players from decades ago had not "solved the jitter issue", otherwise I wouldn't have had the clock in mine upgraded by Audiocom, subsequently with great success, and resulting in easily heard (significant) sonic improvements, along the lines you described earlier, after you'd carried out something similar with your gear.

    Marco.
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  7. #97
    Join Date: Jan 2008

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    It is in fact the orthodox engineering view on the subject. The alternative point of view expressed by sites like HB project - that we can hear frequencies higher than 22Khz, that tiny amounts of jitter are audible, that pre and post ringing are audible, is not taken seriously.
    Why, simply because of arrogance?

    Well, it should be taken seriously, as that view, based on the conclusions of someone else's research and experience, is as valid as the "orthodox engineering view" you choose to accept.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  8. #98
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Note in the article there is no mention of what jitter sounds like and what levels it has to be at before you can hear it.
    That is explained in the video Gaz linked to, entitled 'Why jitter matters'. Jitter manifests itself by creating timing anomalies in music, which to some discerning listeners is audible. The chap also explains the levels involved, where jitter becomes audible, in terms of chips he's fitted and tested. Watch the video again and you'll see.

    You have a bad habit of highlighting only information that appears to back up your argument, whilst ignoring the rest!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  9. #99
    Join Date: Feb 2008

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    I'm Neal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Which bit do you agree with Martin on?
    Recommending that site as a whole, as per my post above.
    Listening in a Foo free Zone...

    Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

  10. #100
    Join Date: Feb 2008

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    I'm Neal.

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    here’s a bit more on impulse and filter ringing. http://archimago.blogspot.com/2016/0...n-filters.html
    Listening in a Foo free Zone...

    Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

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