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Thread: Digital Facts and realities?

  1. #161
    Join Date: Aug 2009

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    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    The electrical components used on the board combine to perform the function of the clock upgrade, and so their effect can't be assessed individually. It's cumulative, thus the board acts as one part (replacing the existing 'gubbins'), and so that's how its effect is assessed.

    Obviously I can't say for certain if the clock upgrade factually reduced jitter, as I didn't measure it (although Mark may have on his test bench), but since you're a fan of technical studies, there are plenty around*, documenting evidence of clock upgrades reducing jitter in the digital domain, for me to believe that they're intrinsically linked, notwithstanding numerous testimonials from people, such as Neal, who've had first-hand experience of carrying out such upgrades themselves, and of course my own.

    In that respect, it would certainly have been interesting to have taken some pre and post clock upgrade jitter measurements, and I'll ask Mark if he did, and what his views are on the matter, as I'd be confident that results would've backed up what my ears clearly indicated. The bottom line though, is that the clock upgrade carried out to my Sony DAC fundamentally improved its sonic performance, which demonstrated that there was mileage to be had in that area, even with 'flagship' gear, as indeed there will almost certainly be with any of your CDPs.
    .
    no - paper you linked to does not document a clock upgrade reducing jitter. That aside I am not disputing that a clock upgrade could reduce jitter. My points are 1) Jitter was almost certainly inaudible to begin with so even if you reduce it further you will not gain any audible benefit. 2) That the process of modifying the DAC could introduce changes in the sound unconnected with the level of jitter.

    Without more controls there is no way to say that the reduction in jitter created the subjective improvement in sound quality.


    I think Mark is unlikely to have made any measurements but it would be interesting if he has.


    Both you and Gaz are far overestimating the effect jitter has on the sound and our ability to hear those effects. And are therefore erroneously concluding that the beneficial effects of the modifications you made are due to reduced jitter. The vast bulk of the evidence indicates that whatever improved the sound it was not a reduction in jitter.

    Here there are some files with various amounts of jitter added http://archimago.blogspot.com/2018/0...me-jitter.html

    If you can't be arsed to read it all and listen to the files here's the conclusion (my bold):

    For me, even with a synthetic sweep, it took >100ns of cumulative sinusoidal jitter in the frequencies used (+/-225Hz, +/-1125Hz, +/-2475Hz distribution with decreasing amounts for each as above) before I could hear distortion! This is obviously a level of sideband distortion significantly beyond what we see with CD/DAC measurements. As I said a couple weeks ago, finding jitter distortion is certainly not impossible out in the wild... But it will be like looking for the giant panda. You'll only rarely find it when you know where to look.

    Over the years, I have discussed my suspicions about devices like "regenerating" USB hubs, "purifiers", passive filters, doubts about digital cables of normal length supposedly capable of reducing jitter, and I've read articles from folks who seem to find (and hear) jitter everywhere! The designers and manufacturers have had every opportunity to demonstrate that these devices are able to do something to improve sound quality. The fact that they don't show objective results for their products and in fact essentially ignores calls to produce evidence when confronted is telling
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  2. #162
    Join Date: Jan 2008

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    I'm getting bored now, mate [big yawn], as this is going round in circles. Come back to me when you've got some practical experience with clock upgrades, and we'll talk then

    Marco.
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  3. #163
    Join Date: Jan 2013

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    I'm James.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Not so sure about jitter. Jitter sounds like tape wow and flutter. We've all owned or heard a cheap cassette deck (except maybe the youngsters) so we all know what that sounds like. The wobble on sustained notes. Who's ever heard a digital source sound like that? (unless it's actually on the recording like on the Boston album 'Third Stage' for example).


    Even that cheapo DVD player you found in a skip has better jitter performance than any RTR deck or turntable by quite a large margin. There needs to be a lot of jitter before it is possible to hear it. http://www.ultrahighendreview.com/up..._on_Jitter.pdf
    Going back to one of your earlier posts and you state Jitter sounds like tape "wow and flutter." This shows a complete lack of understanding of what jitter sounds like and what it is. Because of this statement of *bollocks* then I feel all that you have written about this subject and indeed all your comments on digital audio need to be considered with a high deal of suspicion as to their validity.

    I am by no means an expert on digital audio but I do know some of the facts which not only have I read and studied, more importantly I have demonstrated practically to myself through listening experience which is what I really think you really ought to try. Before you cast around saying that other people either on here or people I have suggested are flawed in their arguments you should take or should I say LISTEN to digital audio yourself and do the practical experimentation.

    You can evaluate clocking and separate power supplies yourself at modest expense nowadays and you will see what their effect is on jitter. You can start with an old antique CD player if you like but far better investigate FBA audio as it gives a far better SQ and is easy to work on.
    Main system : VPI Scout 1.1 / JMW 9T / 2M Black / Croft 25R+ / Croft 7 / Heco Celan GT 702

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  4. #164
    Join Date: Oct 2008

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    I'm Gary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I'm getting bored now, mate [big yawn], as this is going round in circles. Come back to me when you've got some practical experience with clock upgrades, and we'll talk then

    Marco.
    Sorry Martin, have to agree with Marco here.

    In my own case there were very noticeable improvements after fitting an upgraded clock to my Oppo.
    Subjective...sure.
    But importantly measurable too: the new clock specifically designed to lower the amount of measurable jitter.

    So it’s plainly cause and effect, not me reading something into it that’s not there.
    Just sayin’
    Last edited by Gazjam; 21-03-2019 at 10:33.
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  5. #165
    Join Date: Jan 2008

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    I'm Tony.

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    I see Martin is following his usual path of denial

    They are reasons that the power supply to a clock is also as important as the quality of the clock itself imho

    For example the latest fad for fetmo clocks is quite something, uber low jitter sepc's the best yet etc. However EVERYTHING in the clock signal path way has an effect, personally I use low phase noise clocks for me they produce a far more natural sound, however the correct ultra quiet power supply rail to the clock is AS important to reaping these benefits.

    Having fitted over 200 aftermarket clocks in the last 15 years, NO one has returned the units and decided it has made no difference what so ever.

    So according to Martin's logic either they are over 200 people fooling themselves that it does make a different or like naim owners convincing themselves it does sound better than the rest of the audio world products

    Or a lot of people are embarrassed but are too afraid to speak up?

    Jitter is important in the context of the individual piece of equipment and how it is implemented, however the sum of the parts make the whole.



    You can measure the before and after clock output frequency signals when you change a clock whether this relates directly to improved sound quality is as debatable as a class 'a' monster power amp is the epitome of quality audio play back.
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  6. #166
    Join Date: Oct 2008

    Location: Glasgowshire

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    I'm Gary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. C View Post
    I see Martin is following his usual path of denial

    They are reasons that the power supply to a clock is also as important as the quality of the clock itself imho

    For example the latest fad for fetmo clocks is quite something, uber low jitter sepc's the best yet etc. However EVERYTHING in the clock signal path way has an effect, personally I use low phase noise clocks for me they produce a far more natural sound, however the correct ultra quiet power supply rail to the clock is AS important to reaping these benefits.

    Having fitted over 200 aftermarket clocks in the last 15 years, NO one has returned the units and decided it has made no difference what so ever.

    So according to Martin's logic either they are over 200 people fooling themselves that it does make a different or like naim owners convincing themselves it does sound better than the rest of the audio world products

    Or a lot of people are embarrassed but are too afraid to speak up?

    Jitter is important in the context of the individual piece of equipment and how it is implemented, however the sum of the parts make the whole.



    You can measure the before and after clock output frequency signals when you change a clock whether this relates directly to improved sound quality is as debatable as a class 'a' monster power amp is the epitome of quality audio play back.
    Agreed re: phase noise, more of an effect I think than a clock that is still super accurate a thousand years from now.
    Power supply quality is vital too.

    of course...assuming IF any of this stuff makes a difference
    AC POWER
    Hardwired 10kVA balanced mains powering entire system
    AMPS
    Meridian 557 power Amp (Modded) / PS Audio BHK Preamp (Modded)
    SPEAKERS
    Wharfedale Evo 4.4
    DAC
    PS Audio Directstream (Modded)
    TURNTABLE
    Pro-Ject X8 balanced output via XLR / Ortofon Quintet Blue cartridge
    PHONOSTAGE
    Pro-Ject DS3 B balanced Input (TT and Phonostage powered by Pro-Ject Power box RS2 linear psu)
    DIGITAL
    OPPO 203 (Modded: Linear PSU, i2s output to Dac) - Roon Endpoint, HDMI input used for all things Streaming/ PS5 /AppleTV ... also good for movies apparently?
    MUSIC PLAYBACK
    Tweaked AP-Linux based Roon Server into Oppo 203 as Roon endpoint
    Ipad Roon Remote.
    Apple Music/ YouTube via AppleTV, fed to Dac via Oppo HDMI input/i2s output to Dac.
    SPEAKER CABLES
    Biwired: Duelund DCA10GA (Bass) Duelund DCA16GA (mid & treble) Duelund 12DCA used as jumpers (On
    "Blackcat Cable" Chris Sommivigo's advice - yup, even with biwire it sounds better - and it does)
    INTERCONNECTS
    All Balanced: Ghost+ recording studio XLR cables

  7. #167
    Bigman80 Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. C View Post
    I see Martin is following his usual path of denial

    They are reasons that the power supply to a clock is also as important as the quality of the clock itself imho

    For example the latest fad for fetmo clocks is quite something, uber low jitter sepc's the best yet etc. However EVERYTHING in the clock signal path way has an effect, personally I use low phase noise clocks for me they produce a far more natural sound, however the correct ultra quiet power supply rail to the clock is AS important to reaping these benefits.

    Having fitted over 200 aftermarket clocks in the last 15 years, NO one has returned the units and decided it has made no difference what so ever.

    So according to Martin's logic either they are over 200 people fooling themselves that it does make a different or like naim owners convincing themselves it does sound better than the rest of the audio world products

    Or a lot of people are embarrassed but are too afraid to speak up?

    Jitter is important in the context of the individual piece of equipment and how it is implemented, however the sum of the parts make the whole.



    You can measure the before and after clock output frequency signals when you change a clock whether this relates directly to improved sound quality is as debatable as a class 'a' monster power amp is the epitome of quality audio play back.
    But we all know it is

  8. #168
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

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    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gazjam View Post
    Sorry Martin, have to agree with Marco here.

    In my own case there were very noticeable improvements after fitting an upgraded clock to my Oppo.
    Subjective...sure.
    But importantly measurable too: the new clock specifically designed to lower the amount of measurable jitter.

    So it’s plainly cause and effect, not me reading something into it that’s not there.
    Just sayin’
    No need to apologise. I think it is good to have a debate on the subject and I don't take it personally although the attempts to discredit me rather than the independent evidence and information I have put forward are somewhat tiresome. As for those telling me I have no experience because I have not paid some bloke to put some different parts into a cd player - that's quite funny.


    I spent too much wasted time and money in this hobby listening to the one-sided argument put forward by the magazines who I now know were wrong way more often than they were right, but in the absence of any conflicting point of view I accepted unquestioningly. Now at least with forums you can read more than one point of view and make your own mind up or even go and research yourself.


    Tony - Some people still not getting the fact that I am not arguing that they did not hear an improvement with their upgrades but that they have offered no evidence that the improvement was due to decreased jitter whereas I have presented evidence showing that that it is highly unlikely to be the reason. It may be that is wrong but no-one has put forward anything that even remotely convinces me otherwise so far. 'No-one has sent one back' will probably not stand up at the AES and it won't with me either. You need to demonstrate cause and effect to a much higher standard. I have explained why already.


    For my own part I have owned many and still own quite a few CD players. (Twenty-odd). They range from budget all the way up to flagship, with all forms of processing - multibit, MASH, Bitstream, upsampling and across many manufacturers and ranging from 1984 to 2008 in date of origin. I have also had a number of DACS and have tested them using various CD players, DVD players and BD players as transports.


    My untested, uncontrolled subjective opinion (since that seems to be the gold standard of proof in this discussion despite the title of the thread) after 30 years of trying to get a high quality sound out of digital is that as far as sound quality (not presentation) is concerned, the amplification is by far the most influential factor. Over whatever topology, cost, age, make, spec or whatever of the CD player. None of my Cd players exhibits any sort of hash, grain, harshness or glare through my present system. They do not all sound the same but some are better than others. Why?


    Why indeed? - and of course once we ask this question it is where we leave the realm of subjectivity - where all we need to do is listen and decide which one we like best - and move into the realm of objectivity. And that is where the 'An audio reviewer said it was because of this' or 'A bloke trying to sell me stuff said this was the reason' should not get put forward as reasoned argument. If really you want to know why you need to get into the realm of measurements, controlled testing and so forth. If you don't fancy that that's fine - just stick with 'I had a listen and it was better' and leave it at that.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  9. #169
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

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    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Going back to one of your earlier posts and you state Jitter sounds like tape "wow and flutter." This shows a complete lack of understanding of what jitter sounds like and what it is. Because of this statement of *bollocks* then I feel all that you have written about this subject and indeed all your comments on digital audio need to be considered with a high deal of suspicion as to their validity.

    .
    So what does jitter sound like then?

    I'm sorry but I have tried and failed to find the site where you can compare music files with no jitter and with lots of jitter. I don't think I dreamed it! But on those files at least you will have to trust me it sounds exactly like tape wow. However in searching for them I did end up reading another fairly large amount of jitter-related material and it seems that it is very hard to pin down what jitter sounds like. Obviously there are different types of jitter which confuses the matter. Anyway I found the following opinions from various 'boffins':


    It sounds like tape wow and flutter

    It masks fine details

    It makes the sound harsh and hard


    It is impossible to pin down what jitter will sound like as its subjective effect on the sound will be system dependant.



    of course all of these statements are based on jitter being at audible levels to begin with.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  10. #170
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Birmingham

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    I'm James.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    So what does jitter sound like then?

    I'm sorry but I have tried and failed to find the site where you can compare music files with no jitter and with lots of jitter. I don't think I dreamed it! But on those files at least you will have to trust me it sounds exactly like tape wow. However in searching for them I did end up reading another fairly large amount of jitter-related material and it seems that it is very hard to pin down what jitter sounds like. Obviously there are different types of jitter which confuses the matter. Anyway I found the following opinions from various 'boffins':


    It sounds like tape wow and flutter

    It masks fine details

    It makes the sound harsh and hard


    It is impossible to pin down what jitter will sound like as its subjective effect on the sound will be system dependant.



    of course all of these statements are based on jitter being at audible levels to begin with.
    Jitter can manifest itself in a number of ways audibly, these include, sibilance, narrow stereo image and flat soundstage, poor bass(common) and sharp tinny brass instruments.
    Main system : VPI Scout 1.1 / JMW 9T / 2M Black / Croft 25R+ / Croft 7 / Heco Celan GT 702

    Second System : Goldring Lenco GL75 / AT95EX / Pioneer SX590 / Spendor SP2

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