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Thread: Digital Facts and realities?

  1. #121
    Join Date: Aug 2009

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    Yeah there's no real answer to that is there? I'm surprised anyone still clings to the belief that frequencies we can't hear matter. The evidence and indeed the logic are pretty overwhelming.


    It's a shame we can't bring Miles Davis et al back to life so they could re-record 'Kind Of Blue' with mics that can capture 100Khz then maybe it wouldn't sound so crap and people might start rating it as a good album.
    Current Lash Up:

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  2. #122
    Join Date: Apr 2012

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    I'm Geoff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Yeah there's no real answer to that is there? I'm surprised anyone still clings to the belief that frequencies we can't hear matter.
    They do at the recording stage. Harmonic interplay is part of the structure of music and the supersonic element influences what is heard lower down. Once recorded though, the structure of the music is complete and filtering off above the audio band will affect nothing we hear.
    It is impossible for anything digital to sound analogue, because it isn't analogue!

  3. #123
    Join Date: Jan 2008

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    I'm surprised anyone still clings to the belief that frequencies we can't hear matter...
    So how do super-tweeters work, then?

    In any case, any chance you could answer some of the posts I've directed at you today, all of which so far have been ignored!

    Marco.
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  4. #124
    Join Date: Nov 2011

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    So how do super-tweeters work, then?

    Marco.
    Well as according to Martin there is no musical content above 20khz because mics generally used in recording studios do not go above 20Khz (I would agree unless they are using Bruel & Kear high end mics capable of over 20khz, there are a few other manufacturers) then you must be hearing some form of invented sound from the results of digital mathematical interpolations in the DAC processing.
    Listening is the act of aural discrimination and dissemination of sound, and accepting you get it wrong sometimes.

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  5. #125
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

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    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    So how do super-tweeters work, then?

    In any case, any chance you could answer some of the posts I've directed at you today, all of which so far have been ignored!

    Marco.
    If you can set your super tweeters so they only output above, say 20Hz, switch off the main speakers and play some music, you won't hear a thing. In reality super tweeters have output way down into the audible range. That's how they work. It's just adding an extra tweeter to the speaker. There will be some cancellation but on the whole you'll shelve up the whole top end from maybe as low as 5Khz all the way up. So there's more air and space! But no mystery.

    What other posts are you talking about?
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  6. #126
    Join Date: Feb 2013

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    Dont hear anything from the bapture tweeters.
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  7. #127
    Join Date: Feb 2008

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    I'm Neal.

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    Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post

    Timing is everything and the reconstruction of the original digital recording can so easily be compromised, especially by CD players unless huge effort and expense has been taken to resolve the issues. A spinning disc read by a laser at 500 mph with small scratches and imperfections is not best way to extract digital audio!
    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Actually the beauty of doing things digitally is that it doesn't matter. You can check your work beforehand to ensure that what is output is correct. Yes if the disc is damaged past a certain point it won't play or will drop out. The trick there is not to damage your discs. Not hard, we manage to do it with vinyl which is far more fragile.

    I don't understand why you think reading the file from a hard drive as opposed to a disc makes any difference at all. Hard drives spin pretty fast. Unless it is a solid state job. And why does the fact that it is spinning matter? If you can provide some back up to these assertions I'm happy to take it on board.
    Maybe it’s me but I’m struggling to follow your reasoning. Precise timing in digital circuits is imperative to reliable data transmission and critical in audio circuits especially when converting to digital and back into analogue. It’s also key for reading optical disk as rotation of the disk and synconisation of the read optics is critical, it’s a real time operation we can’t back track and re-read a data block if it was misread or found corrupt. Reading from a HDD is not time critical as we can go back and retry and apply CRC error correction or reallocate a bad block if necessary. Data is buffered in memory and can be clocked out as and when the end device is ready to receive it. The two operations are fundamentally different.
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  8. #128
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    If you can set your super tweeters so they only output above, say 20Hz, switch off the main speakers and play some music, you won't hear a thing. In reality super tweeters have output way down into the audible range. That's how they work. It's just adding an extra tweeter to the speaker. There will be some cancellation but on the whole you'll shelve up the whole top end from maybe as low as 5Khz all the way up. So there's more air and space! But no mystery.

    What other posts are you talking about?
    Scroll back and note the times today I've quoted you and replied, directing some questions, but you've not responded in return... At a guess, without looking, there must be at least four examples of such. Anyway, it's no biggie; I was really just pulling your leg

    As for the rest, my point was simply not to underestimate/dismiss out of hand the influence of things that, on the surface, don't appear to matter. It can be a bad mistake to make.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  9. #129
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: N E Kent

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    I'm Geoff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by struth View Post
    Dont hear anything from the bapture tweeters.
    Well if you're anything like me Grant, you won't hear much above 10kHz.
    It is impossible for anything digital to sound analogue, because it isn't analogue!

  10. #130
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

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    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NRG View Post
    Maybe it’s me but I’m struggling to follow your reasoning. Precise timing in digital circuits is imperative to reliable data transmission and critical in audio circuits especially when converting to digital and back into analogue. It’s also key for reading optical disk as rotation of the disk and synconisation of the read optics is critical, it’s a real time operation we can’t back track and re-read a data block if it was misread or found corrupt. Reading from a HDD is not time critical as we can go back and retry and apply CRC error correction or reallocate a bad block if necessary. Data is buffered in memory and can be clocked out as and when the end device is ready to receive it. The two operations are fundamentally different.
    I agree. Nevertheless the number of times that a cd drops out or fails to read entirely is so few that it isn't worth worrying about. Otherwise the waveform is reproduced perfectly and as I said previously, and as the AES paper I linked to demonstrates, jitter in a cd player (or a DAC) is not sufficiently high to be audible. The ability to re-read a data block or buffer to reduce timing errors therefore confers no advantage over the disc in terms of sound quality. Although I accept that technically it is a superior way of doing things.


    Problems that could theoretically cause poor sound as people describe - harsh, hard, lacking focus and soundstage - like distortion from power supply modulation never seem to get talked about and that could equally be a problem in a server-streamer-DAC set up as in a cd player.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

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