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Thread: Denon DL-103 impedance load

  1. #11
    Join Date: Jan 2008

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I use 390R + 4.7nF.

    Using 100R, I find the DL103 sounds a bit 'closed in' (for want of a better description), whereas using 1000R, the sound is a bit too 'lively' with an uncontrolled or bright treble.
    Any ideas on why that was the case, when it's never been for me (as per my past post)? I full agree though, about the results at 1000R.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

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  2. #12
    Join Date: May 2010

    Location: Vancouver, Canada

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    I'm Alex.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I'm cool mate, as always! I know, don't talk to me about Brexit bull - the lunacy and repetitiveness of it all bores the SHITE out of me... Far more important, as you say, is just enjoying life, listening to music and having fun with your system
    As looney as Brexit is, it doesn't come even close to the absurdity of the most incompetent US president in history. The only way to find solace is to retreat into one's private life with a small chosen group of friends...

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Lol - only if YOU feel you need to! The fact is, however, that SUTs come into their own at a price point considerably in excess of that of the AU-310. It's a good little device, but really only suitable for giving you a taste of what SUTs can do. Another recommendation, and which works superbly well with a 103, is the little Lentek head amp: https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/in...p?topic=2317.0

    Cheap as chips, and a superb match for the 103! You should keep a lookout for one.
    Again, something to consider. I trust your judgment in these matters, since you are way more experienced than I am. So, the journey toward ecstatic sound continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Does it sound "much more powerful" though, due to it being louder? That's what you have to rule out. However, if you're experiencing all those other benefits, then that suggests something more fundamental is happening.
    I think you may be right. Last night I reset my phono to 100ohms and cranked up the volume and yes, it sounds very similar to 1000ohms at lower volume. So looks like I was wrong in concluding that 100ohms lacks balls. Hi fi paranoia has gotten under my skin. Not a pleasant state, I can tell you that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    No worries, Alex. We're all here to share our experiences and help each other if we can. There's a lot to analyse in what you've just written there, and trust me I don't dispute for one second that in your system your 103 sounds best loaded at 1000ohms.
    I now think that was a hasty conclusion on my part, as it turned out that differences in volume were the contributing factor. Apologies for being the stupid boy who cried wolf.

    As a side note, how reliable are those smart phone apps that are supposed to measure SPL in decibels? I was using one to gauge the loudness of the playback, and it apparently deceived me into believing that different loads played at similar levels at my listening position.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    However, equally, I can also say with some certainty that my 103 doesn't in mine, and nor has any other 103 I've used (in various different systems) since I first stared using them back in 1981/2, where it was partnered with a Lentek head amp (loading at 100ohms) and the MM stage of a Sondex S-230 solid-state amp.

    Plus, what's really rather strange is unlike others here, including yourself, any 103 I've used in any system I've owned has fundamentally *never* sounded 'dull', loaded at 100ohms - indeed almost the complete opposite, and to my ears just 'right', and how I'd traditionally expect a 103 to sound: ballsy, dynamic, lucid, detailed, weighty, as I simply couldn't live with a dull sound.
    Yes, you're right. The 'dull' sound I erroneously perceived was merely quieter sound. I now feel stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Moreover, as I've already said, why do Denon's own SUTs (and head amps), which were intended to be used with a 103, all load it fixed at 100ohms, if it's going to result in a dull sound?

    That simply doesn't make sense, and as I've said, isn't in any way reflected in my experience. Plus, it's not as if your system sounded a bit dull, so you were loading your 103 at 1000ohms to get a brighter sound... That doesn't apply either. So one wonders what's going on...?
    At this point, it's almost as if I'd better walk away from my system, make a trip to Whistler (local ski resort) and spend the weekend skiing, to clear my head. I'm starting to get weird results while experimenting with loads, and those results are beginning to contradict each other. It may be all in my oversensitive ears? Almost like I need a bit of palate cleansing (like those situations when women are shopping for a fragrance and after sniffing a number of different bottles, they need to smell a jar of freshly ground coffee, to reset their senses

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I've certainly always used a 103, in conjunction with a top-notch T/T and tonearm, all of which has been immaculately set up, and with high-quality (highly revealing) partnering equipment, especially phono stage, but I'm sure that's also the case for the likes of Neal and Barry, who both claim a 'dull sound' when loading a 103 at 100ohms, so I'm afraid that one has me stumped!

    Marco.
    I'm now with you, after realizing last night that 100ohms merely affects the playback by making it quieter than it is with higher loads. So that's ruled out, and I'm now okay with staying at the 100ohms level.

    What is really nice in my system right now is the addition of a turntable stabilizing platform. A friend of mine, who is very good at building things, tailor-built an awesome platform for my Systemdek. He is a much more advanced audiophile than I am, and he convinced me that the sound will get to a whole new level if I place my turntable on this stabilizing platform. I was quite skeptical, I must admit, but I caved in. I was expecting some minor improvements that the platform might bring. Boy, was I wrong. Placing the turntable on this platform completely transformed the sound of my system! It is as if I upgraded every component.

    Here is the 'magic' platform:

    https://scontent.fcxh2-1.fna.fbcdn.n...3a&oe=5CE55D00
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    Alex.

  3. #13
    Join Date: Jan 2009

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Any ideas on why that was the case, when it's never been for me (as per my past post)? I full agree though, about the results at 1000R.

    Marco.
    The load impedance I quoted was that of the Linn LINNK phonostage I used with the Denon 103. The LINNK was designed for Linn by Naim (it is based on the Naim 323 circuit boards) for, I think, the Linn Asak.

    Anyway, I usually follow the rule of thumb that ideally a cartridge ought to be loaded with no less than 10x the cartridge impedance. This allows the transmission loss to be no greater than 1dB. However if the cartridge is loaded with a low impedance, it too heavily damped resulting in a sound that can be described as "sat on", or "closed in". Conversely, if the loading impedance is too high, the cartridge is insufficiently damped and can cause the treble to sound too lively and uncontrolled.

    Of course it is to some extent system dependant, and thus a matter of taste.

    Alex mentions noticing a change in output level with a change in load impedance. If we take 40R for the coil impedance of the Denon 103, then the transmission loss for various load impedances are:

    100R - 2.6dB
    400R - 0.8dB

    1000R - 0.34dB.

    Thus in changing the loading impedance from 100R to 1000R, the cartridge output will increase by 2.3dB, which will be noticeable.
    Barry

  4. #14
    Join Date: May 2010

    Location: Vancouver, Canada

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    The load impedance I quoted was that of the Linn LINNK phonostage I used with the Denon 103. The LINNK was designed for Linn by Naim (it is based on the Naim 323 circuit boards) for, I think, the Linn Asak.

    Anyway, I usually follow the rule of thumb that ideally a cartridge ought to be loaded with no less than 10x the cartridge impedance. This allows the transmission loss to be no greater than 1dB. However if the cartridge is loaded with a low impedance, it too heavily damped resulting in a sound that can be described as "sat on", or "closed in". Conversely, if the loading impedance is too high, the cartridge is insufficiently damped and can cause the treble to sound too lively and uncontrolled.

    Of course it is to some extent system dependant, and thus a matter of taste.

    Alex mentions noticing a change in output level with a change in load impedance. If we take 40R for the coil impedance of the Denon 103, then the transmission loss for various load impedances are:

    100R - 2.6dB
    400R - 0.8dB

    1000R - 0.34dB.

    Thus in changing the loading impedance from 100R to 1000R, the cartridge output will increase by 2.3dB, which will be noticeable.
    After a lot (and I mean A LOT) of experimenting, I came to the final conclusion that, on my system, 250ohms is the absolute sweetest spot for DL-103. It sounds stunningly better than any other configuration I was able to try.

    I did not report this sweet spot earlier because, due to the faulty user manual that shipped with my phono, I never stumbled upon the proper configuration for the 250ohms. It was only after I consulted the online manual that I was able to properly set the switches to 250ohms (not the most intuitive user interface, I'll give them that). And immediately -- voila! -- everything came to life!
    Don't you just hate it when you cannot detect where the post ends and a signature line begins?

    Alex.

  5. #15
    montesquieu Guest

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    500 ohms upwards for the standard 103 in my experience, lower (100 upwards) for the 103R and some of the exotic variants.

    As Marco says the 310 is very much entry level for an SUT and easily improved on. Handy though back in the day when most amps came with an integrated MM stage.

    FWIW I recently heard a 103R in my setup (courtesy of Petrat) in one of the pressure-fit aluminium external bodies (no chopping required) that Adam was circulating and I was very impressed with the improvement. Well worth investigating.

  6. #16
    Join Date: Jul 2009

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    My DL-103 gets loaded with 100 Ohms, becasue that's what my MC phono stage loads it with! Sounds magnificent, too.
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  7. #17
    Join Date: May 2010

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beobloke View Post
    My DL-103 gets loaded with 100 Ohms, becasue that's what my MC phono stage loads it with! Sounds magnificent, too.
    For some reason, 100ohms makes my DL-103 sound tame and polite. Even when I crank up the volume, the impression that the cart is 'holding back' remains. Bump it up to 250ohms, and it turns into a tiger!

    I now agree with Marco and others that 1000ohms makes it a bit shrill and uneven.
    Don't you just hate it when you cannot detect where the post ends and a signature line begins?

    Alex.

  8. #18
    Join Date: Dec 2010

    Location: New Zealand

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    I'm David.

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    Did read there was a 2017 edition 103 with Output Impedance of 14 ohms https://www.stereophile.com/content/...specifications not sure if this is just a reference to the 103R?

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